Deprogramming

[TheSparrowhawk]

This is a thread for feminists (not our regulars who like to hang out here and tell us how pointless feminism is) to address the ways in which growing up and living in a patriarchal society has affected our thinking. Essentially a self-help thread.

I have struggled with addressing my relationship with my parents. For years I blamed my mother for their total emotional neglect of me. It's only recently I've opened my eyes to the fact that whatever parenting I got, she did it, while also working full-time and doing most of the housework. My father did little or nothing. But I expected a lot more from my mother and so blamed her more.

The statutory minimum in the UK is 90% of full/average pay for 6 weeks, then statutory maternity pay (currently £139.58) for a further 33 weeks. Any accrued annual leave is in addition to that.

It is indeed. Most women tag it onto ML either start or finish, and if you're on SMP it's the only full pay you'll be getting. The 6 weeks at 90% is also part of SMP.

This is such an interesting thread - I think deprogramming is such a good word to describe what needs doing as well, because it's so easy to see everything as individual choices without realising that we've all been socialised to act in certain ways.

I don't have children but DP & I both work for a company with the ability to take paternity leave in the place of maternity leave. When I mentioned this he instantly stated that he couldn't take paternity leave because it would be bad for his career. I don't even think he thought through the implications that maternity leave would have for me - it was just straight to his unthinking self-prioritisation.

I was very clear that I have no intention of parenting with someone who doesn't expect to change their life to accommodate a child and I think we've come to an understanding but obviously that won't be tested until children are more firmly on the cards. Unfortunately it seems to be a default position for some men that children are something a woman wants and that men will allow or put up with - it's not a dynamic I'm willing to put up with!

See, in that situation OneFlew, you're supposed to nod meekly and acknowledge that while your body, career and everything else about your life may be irrevocably changed by children, your husband should not be inconvenienced in any way by your silly urge to procreate.

Fat chance Sparrow! I think DP was quite surprised to realise that I didn't intend to be barefoot and pregnant like his mother was - you'd think the hoards of books on feminism might have given him a clue but there you go.

I think this is where deprogramming is so important too - because I wouldn't say that DP holds sexist views, at least consciously, and yet as soon as you hit that barrier of having children all these underlying assumptions about the natural role of men and women seem to come out of the woodwork and it took a very frank conversation to point out that I had no intention of being that woman.

The difficulty though, OneFlew, is that he may agree with you that his expectations are unreasonable, but if he doesn't genuinely and thoroughly address where those expectations came from, there is a real danger that they'll come back kicking again once a baby At that point you will be so shell shocked and exhausted from having a new baby that you simply won't have the brainspace or energy to fight it. The last thing you need in that situation is to have to beg someone to do their bit.

once a baby arrives

Had I discussed equality in parenting with DH before we had kids he would have said all the right things. When it came down to it, he avoided doing anything that was any way difficult for him. When children are involved you absolutely have to step in and do it yourself. Thus the inequality builds up and builds up.

It was so fucking sad seeing Nadiya (of Bake Off fame) saying that while she was away on a trip of a lifetime, she had done an online shop and would have to remind her husband to give packed lunches to his children. How many women would fail to stock the cupboards/give their children lunch while their husband was away??

You're right, Sparrow and it does worry me - we are very fortunate to have generous paternity leave at our work and as much as I would love children if he showed that he is less than committed by refusing to take proper advantage of that paternity leave then I would not want to have children with him tbh.

Of course, I'm sure men take (sole) paternity leave and still end up as lazy fathers, but at least it would go some of the way to preventing that inequality when men believe that women who stay home with the baby are doing "nothing" all day.

And yes, I've found a lot of the stories about Nadiya very sad since she won the Bake Off - she said on Women's Hour that when she did her A-levels she was planning about what she could do with them, because she didn't want to face up to reality that she was just going to be married off to have children.

I don't think it's very surprising that she does all that for her husband when that's the background she comes from.

It's a good point about the deprogramming having to work on both sides, male and female.

In DH's case, his deprogramming has been driven by two things - economic reality meaning he is the logical SAHP and also having a DD. But he still doesn't remember to do everything.

One thing I have wondered about, re socialisation and programming (especially now I have a DD and another one on the way) is the extent to which parental role models are universal vs sex-specific. What I mean is - will DD grow up understanding that she can choose a path she wants, whether that is primary caregiver to children like DH or whether that is career focussed like me. Or if she will internalise that career is "what women do" just because that's what mummy does. I would prefer (obviously) that she doesn't link any non-biological choices to being male/female, but I don't really understand how gender-based socialisation works on a psychological and neurological level.

It's a good question Sentia - I think that it's likely that your DD will be as impacted by seeing the reverse dynamic in parents of friends and family, as she will be by her experience at home. Hopefully seeing your DH being the SAHP will mean that she doesn't fall into the trap of thinking that women have to be the one to stay home with the kids, but unless you live somewhere very different to the UK I doubt she'll believe the opposite either.

Sad but I think true One. We are in the UK and in a place with a LOT of SAHMs so I imagine her school friends' parents once we get to that point will give her ample opportunity to see the opposite dynamic to ours.

A great thread. I have a 5 month DS And I want to bring him up to be a feminist. There's obvious things to do but I worry that it will be all the subconscious things that I do that he'll pick up on. It would be useful for all parents to have a list/ suggestions about dos and don'ts (or maybe that's just me). Can anyone recommend any good websites so I can get ahead?

Really interesting discussion. I am coming to the end of 5 yrs as SAHM by returning to full time study in a couple of weeks: a masters that I hope will lead to a fulfilling career. The number of people applauding my DH for supporting this choice has been surprising: like I am indulgently going off to think about fairies or something rather than committing to an intense and difficult workload. In prep for the course I have been ploughing through loads of reading material in the evenings and have been horrified to observe myself trying to slot it in after the rest of it: family days out/housework/childcare etc rather than carve out some solid time on my own. Last Saturday I announced that I was off to the library to study as fewer distractions: my DH made a sad face and tried to convince me to have a family day. His right to time away from the family for work/study is just assumed. There is zero thought attached to him going off to do work. In contrast I find myself seeking permission to do the same, almost like it's not work and merely a vanity project. And the guilt because I want to hit the books and will enjoy it makes me think it's not work. But of course it is isn't it.

What you're feeling is such a common thing Monison - deprogramming definitely needed! DH and I recently started a company together. I'm technically higher up than he is and have more responsibility for getting the business going, but one of our clients needs him five days a week at the moment so we've fallen very much into the man going out to work/woman staying at home dynamic again. I need to get work done at weekends as I have so little time to do it during the week but I feel bad about it - even though it's vital for our business! DH is absolutely fine with it btw - it's all coming from me. The mindset that I have to be around the family, that I can't just walk off and leave him to it, is so ingrained.

The reason it's so ingrained, of course, is that there was a time in our relationship where I had to ask DH to watch the children while I had a fucking shower, whereas he would walk off and wash himself whenever he wanted. The baseline assumption was that the children were 100% my responsibility at all times, so that I had to ask permission to be relieved of it. If I was there, he could just assume I was watching them, whereas I could never assume the same thing about him. A big crunch point was when I asked him one evening to watch the kids (who were both toddlers, one a very young toddler who was into everything) while he ate so I could clear some stuff that was in the dining room. I warned him I'd be taking trips to the bin so the front door would be open and he'd need to watch crazy toddler. On one such trip to the bin I turned around to see said toddler just about to come out the door after me and DH nowhere in sight. When I went in, steaming, to ask what the fuck was going on, he got all huffy and claimed he was 'busy' eating!!! What the fuck he thought happened to his children during the day while I ate my lunch is beyond me. I tore his head off. I couldn't even have 5 measly minutes, not to sit painting my toenails, but to do some fucking housework!!

Have you talked to your DH about the discrepancy between his ability to go off to work and yours?

Sounds so familiar sparrow. We have discussed it and he does get it on an intellectual level. I have told him that he needs to prepare for sick days/special assemblies/nativity plays etc as he is more flexi than me (ie he is senior and can do what he likes more or less). But he has had to learn to think about these things. Birthday party arrangements/bathroom cleaning/maintaining diary/planning holidays all pass him by. He does most of the cooking and lots of housework but loo cleaning and washing always fall to me. I have talked to him about the unspoken expectations on women but he doesn't really feel it. I think a lot of the problem has to do with the social conditioning we get as mothers. I can't imagine DH talking to his mates about the guilt he feels about not collecting the kids from school every day. It's bollocks innit!

And yes I vividly remember him gardening just after Dd1 was born. I was a big sweaty heap of boobs and nightie feeding baby thinking I would sell my own granny to dead head some roses on my own. And for him it was business as usual. Garden needs attention= off I go. In fact he probably felt righteous because he had done some work while I was just sitting there. They will never know how difficult 'just being there' can be. We later had dts and he did find out a little of the reality and actually cried!

Mine are 5 and 3 now, and up until the summer holidays I was working 4 days a week. I then went down to one day a week over the summer. Before the summer I thought 'oh lovely I can spend some time with them, I've been missing them, perhaps I won't want to go back to four days...' but fuck me I am so ready to go back! It is so so easy to forget, even having done it yourself, just how bloody exhausting it is never to have a minute to yourself, always being at the beck and call of tiny people who don't give a shit if you're tired or just want to have a poo in peace! Whenever anyone spouts bullshit about how men 'work hard and need their rest' I feel the red mist rising. Women at home with children may not be doing Super Important things like the men, but the literally never get a moment to just think, or have a cup of tea. I find working far far easier than being home with children. Sitting in a meeting listening to someone drone on is boring but it's not at all hard and doesn't even compare to dealing with a bored toddler and a crying baby, which is also incredibly boring but at the same time very stressful, emotional, tiring and difficult to resolve.

Oh, this thread is so recognisable! I guess recognition is the first step? Although I still really struggle with then being able to open my mouth and say "no, this isn't ok, x and y needs to happen."

I have, however, taken a few small steps. One being that laundry only gets done if it is in the basket. No more roaming the house to find random dirty washing! (You may laugh, I know it's ridiculous, 🙂 But this is a surprisingly big deal for me!)

One thing I'm pleased to say is that I don't do and have never done my DH's laundry. If he expected me to not only do it, but also collect it from wherever it was strewn, I would lose the plot.

When my mother found out that I didn't do his laundry, after we moved in together while he was a student and I was working full-time in a stressful job, she said I was 'very hard on him.' I pointed out to her that she (rightly) expected her children (all girls) to do their own laundry from the age of 10. So how was I being 'hard' expecting a grown man who had a lot more free time than I to wash his own clothes? Why should it be the case that when I move in he gains a maid and I gain a pile of dirty clothes? Of course her reaction was to be expected given that even when she worked full time and my dad was unemployed she still did all the washing (and most of everything else). I think that it was easier for her to tell me I was 'too 'hard' than it was for her to admit that her husband was a lazy git who didn't care about her struggling.

Ah Sparrow you've made me remember my conversation with my mother who simultaneously said that my cleaning standards weren't high enough (terrible slattern me) and that my expectations around my DP cleaning were too high!

Because apparently I should have a sparkling kitchen with floor mopped three times a week but expecting DP to wipe up crumbs from the side was taking it too far.

Doing the laundry combined makes sense for the washing itself for us. So work clothes for both of us in one load, all towels in one etc. It's more DS's stuff that gets strewn tbh, but still seen as my job to clear it up.

Fortunately laundry is one of DS's favourite things to do, so he is very happy with the new state of affairs!

I don't know whether this thread is the right place for this post. I've been reading a number of threads about unenthusiastic sex. I know that isnt a great phrase but I'm trying to find something neutral. When I've been reading I keep thinking about this thread and conditioning. How much of what we do in relationships is about a desire to please, about being programmed to please, rather than "fear" of the consequences.

I wonder how many "abusive" relationships could be changed by the women changing.

Happy to repost if this is too out of sync with the rest of thread. Obviously I don't want to confuse the threads I'm talking about by posting these questions there. I know that this question could be very badly thought out.