What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

I would say the same thing about "a man ". You know the person is a man because of our preformed ideas of what men look like and should behave. However, if you where to carry out scientific test you might find out they are of the female sex.

I agree with posters who say that 'woman' is a social or political construct.

I don't think the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is more important biologically than all the other genetic material that makes each person an individual. Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general.

The reason chromosomes (or genitals) are considered important in these debates is because there are already social or political notions as to what a 'woman' is. We can reject sex as a category as easily as we can reject gender as a category. Whether that's useful for feminism is debatable. But I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism. I think rejecting sex can be another way to say, "Fuck off with the boxes."

And I also don't think there's only one correct way to do feminism.

"It is now considered transphobic to state that MTTs are not biologically female."

Not on MN.

Here, we can talk about biological reality and dictionary definitions.

you are behind the times. It is now considered transphobic to state that MTTs are not biologically female.

Actually no, if they can prove a man is biologically female then they are female. It has nothing to do with what a woman looks like. It's what can be tested and in correlation with being female. Nothing at all with being a woman. The two are different things.

The reason chromosomes, genitals and gametes are important in these debates is that in over 99% of humans, an individual either has all three as female of all three as male.

There are very few natural phenomena which form a binary to that extent.

They are also how as a species we reproduce, and so are essential to our survival.

Quencher, these old fashioned things like facts and science are not accounted for in transactivism

Quencher, what part of woman do you think is socially constructed that female is not?

Do you think it is the human part of woman that is a construct or the adult part?

Haven't RTFT but being a woman is being born with ovaries & a womb - anyone can say they feel like a woman, but that's not the same as being able to produce children. ( of course not all women can have children for various medical reasons )

"I don't think the presence or absence of a Y chromosome is more important biologically than all the other genetic material that makes each person an individual. Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general"

Are you on the wrong thread? We are not talking about what makes one person different than the other. We are talking about what makes one person a woman and the other a man.

We are a sexually dimorphic race - i.e. there are two sexes, male and female. The presence or absence of a Y chromosome is what sets males and females apart. Not just in the human species but also in most other mammals.

This is important to understand, because as I mentioned earlier:

Man = Adult human male
Woman = Adult human female

Adjustable

I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism

so it's just coincidence that one sex generally gets the shit end of the stick, the world over? What the fuck is feminism for if you don't recognise that?

quenched what about Alex Drummond and Daniel Muscato? Both identify as women. Both are biologically male and look biologically male. Daniel Muscato makes no effort to present as feminine. Do you consider those to he men or women?

If we reject sex as a category, how are we going to farm?

That Statesman article is frightening. In this day and age we should be able to openly talk about menstruation in the workplace - it's f*cking 2016. Men now know what it is, it's not a Victorian secret never to be discussed.

But now our being a woman has to have another lid put on it cos it might upset a man who feels like a woman who cannot discuss these things and therefore has no way of knowing what it feels like to have a woman's body.

Nor will he know what it feels like to have to hide his bodily functions in normal life....oh no, because all he'll know is how to make sure women have to hide theirs. Being oppressed in the workplace is something he is not experiencing....shame as he'll be missing out on what it feels like to be a woman/female in one of the strongest ways.

Bertie I liked your story and yes, it's a mad, scary situation. I can imagine that the male able to turn back into a 'man' is also unlikely to be sexually assaulted in that instance too as a penis is prob not what a rapist is looking for....

almond

If we reject sex as a category, how are we going to create more children? Will it just be a mystical surprise that some people somehow end up pregnant? But nobody will have any idea who it will happen to, why or how?

"if they can prove a man is biologically female then they are female... Nothing at all with being a woman. The two are different things."

No.

As we see in the definition Woman = Adult human female, the only way to actually be a woman is to be born a female baby, grow up into a girl, and then grow some more and be an adult whereupon she is a woman. That is because the sex of a person cannot be changed with our current science and technology, and being female is a prerequisite to being a woman.

Being perceived as a woman, dressing as a woman, "presenting" as a woman, living according to the gender expectations imposed on women etc are all possible for the male of our species. Actually being a woman is not. Because they are not female.

quenched and what about Rain Dove? Woman or man?

" Even scientists agree that there are more differences between individuals of one sex than between the sexes in general"

Err, what?

So there's more variation in, say, uterus size between small and large women than between the average woman and the average man?

If we leave aside the stonking great variation in uterine possession, then yeah, good point.

"I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism"

I don't think you know what feminism means, tbh.

Hint: It doesn't mean "Let's fight for the rights of whoever wants to put on makeup".

*Around 62,000 women in the UK alone have this, LionHeart.

"MRKH (Mayer Rokitansky Küster Hauser) is a congenital abnormality which affects one in 5,000 women in the UK.

It is characterised by the absence of the vagina, womb and cervix.

Women suffering from the condition will have normally functioning ovaries and so will experience the normal signs of puberty but will not have periods or be able to conceive."*

I couldn't skip past this without commenting because I'm a maths geek....but if 1 in 5000 women have it, and 62,000 women in the UK have it, that would mean the UK population of women alone would be 310,000,000. Do you mean 1 in 500? Or 6200 women have it? Because UK population is 62,000,000.

To get to the topic in point - woman = adult human female.

There have been some fantastic posts on here - VitC, Robin, AlmondPudding, Selkie, Swiss, Seek, Beyond, Felas and lots more.

The link between asd, eating disorders and transgender/gender dysphoria needs much more research. There are links being considered to folks feeling like they are different, not recognising feelings vs physical form due to changes in puberty, sensory issues, the pressure to conform or fit in, missing social cues, assigning feelings and emotions to norms, needing to control things around themselves/making sense of the world etc.

Good luck to you Jack, it seems like you are still on the road to self-discovery. I hope you start to feel better in your own skin very soon.

Are abortion rights a feminist issue?

Is FGM a feminist issue?

State-sanctioned child abuse aka the marriage of underaged girls?

Pregnancy discrimination at work? Freedom to breastfeed?

Rape, a feminist issue? Street harassment? Porn? Page 3? Murder by a partner or an ex?

Which of the above is not to do with the femaleness of the victim/sufferer?

(That was in response to "I don't think sex as a category is necessary for feminism")

Oh good I've found you again - is this the follow on thread to the previous one ? I was wondering why I hadn't seen a #2 thread ...
Anyway Jack I appreciate you're v busy facing tons of questions and answering plenty of them but I just wanted to remind you of my question from early on in the original thread :
What does feminism mean to you ?

Thank you

DAMN the failed bold.... grrrr

If we reject sex as a category, how are we going to farm?

Exactly. This is why we have sex as a category. So that women can be distinguished from men, and exchanged among men, and sexually controlled so that men's sons can inherit their property (land and livestock). This is why there is patriarchy.

Philosophically there's not necessarily any need for woman as a category.
Politically it's a different story.
Feminism needs both philosophy and politics.