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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

What Makes A Woman?

521 replies

MxJackMonroe · 27/07/2016 09:28

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

OP posts:

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 07/08/2016 08:04

And I think kim is fed up of being the representative of All Things Trans on mumsnet!

.. I wasn't saying that at all. I was just saying there is at least one trans poster on MN. I said nothing about her 'representing All Things Trans.' That's obviously her choice; like mine is with 'educating' people about SN

MephistoMarley · 07/08/2016 08:23

Ok, sorry I misunderstood you. I'm sure there are dozens of trans posters but we just don't know because anonymity! Kim is the only one I remember as declaring their trans status to all.

CoteDAzur · 07/08/2016 08:54

"Kim" publicly flounced and returned under different names at least 4 times & has been "declaring trans status" under each name.

Mjingaxx · 07/08/2016 10:37

My point was though to choccybadger, in response to this;

Can any trans person please help me to understand? I want to get it, but I'm not sure I even understand what there is to get

Whilst there maybe a sprinkling of trans people on MN, she would be better searching for a trans POV on a trans site

My experience is that discussions are mostly around autogynaphilia and how to pass, but surely that's the place to search for answers

MyPeriodFeatures · 21/08/2016 11:47

My view is this......

When regulations state that a Pasty can only be a Cornish Pasty if it is crimped in the Cornish Pasty way and a breach of this is an offence...........yet we live in a world where a person can claim to be of another gender and get full recognition and rights as their assigned gender, we are living in a fucked up world.

As a woman who has experience the very real impact of being a woman in the patriarchal society I do struggle that Cornish Pasty has more rights than me.

I am NOT trans phobic. Quite the opposite. I have family members who are trans and have lived with Trans Man. The thing I take issue with it the dropping of the word 'trans' or the denial of biological origins.

It is this that I see to be perpetuating models of masculinity and femininity that damage women.

Trans, I get it, Respect and feel that it is part of human social evolution they will eventually be part of breaking down stupid and oppressive notions of gender. (I have studied evolutionary psychology and reckon I know this shit)

HouseMouseQueen · 29/08/2016 23:12

With regard to lionesses and lions having 'gender roles' I think that's anthropomorphizing them.

What animals do I see more as instinctive and automatic, unlike humans who have the capacity for theory of mind and language. So I don't take what animals do and try to apply that to humans.

Patriarchy aka men, love to use what they see in nature and apply it to reinforce their oppression of women. You'll see this really lame attempt at an argument when it comes to rape. Men will say 'bonobos rape and therefore it's a great evolutionary strategy.'

It's men making excuses to rape.

EmpressoftheMundane · 27/12/2016 17:51

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/12/16/national-geographic-gender-revolution-cover-fails-women/

National Geographic is now putting out a whole issue on gender. Seems they had every possible permutation of gender on the cover, except...female.

hotmail124 · 27/12/2016 18:10

EmpressoftheMundane
In 1984 and Brave New World, motherhood and related aspects of female ness is an obscene embarrassment.
www.pensnest.co.uk/A-Level%20Pages/mod5compare.html

MissDaisy12 · 22/07/2017 18:11

Incredibly insensitive to the thousands of women with MRKH and similar conditions. No less a woman than anyone else - and a good deal tougher and braver than those with perfect functioning genetalia in my opinion

Debbierocket123 · 16/04/2018 11:41

Medically, a human with a vagina. But not all women have vaginas, so I would say "a woman is a person who considers herself to be so". It's getting deep for so early in the morning :)

gracia198 · 30/04/2018 03:11

a woman should see the equality not the man HATER kind

CindersWasAMug · 22/10/2018 10:40

[I don't know how to quote posts, forgive]
SwissWank: Jack do you see why I find it offensive when transwomen say they knew they were female from the start because they like dresses and dolls playing with the girls?

Thank you, SwissWank. I am compassionate, etc etc, but I watched a FB video about a MTF trans child around 8 years old and it was all about how he knew he was a girl because he always loved the colour pink and I wanted to scream from the top of a building! I grew up in the 70s, and was a complete tomboy and hated pink and dresses. In year 5 I wore a football jersey, 3-4 days out of 5 to school. To have 'being female' reduced to pink and fluff makes me so entirely furious, I could pull the heads off Barbie dolls (like I did at a friend's house when I was 12).

Has humanity jumped the shark?

CindersWasAMug · 22/10/2018 11:15

And by the way, I definitely agree with 'people who are raised as female', in terms of an adult man changing into a women. He hasn't had the experiences that shape women's lives.
Like yesterday when I (a woman over 50, by the way) decided to sit on a park bench in the sun for a moment at lunchtime. And a man passing on a bicycle offered me sex, and when seeing my surprise and disgust, offered me anal rape. Charming! He was circling around on his bike, so I decided just to continue on home.

Someone raised male hasn't really had to think about situations like this, and I feel there must be plenty of people raised as women who can speak for women, and maybe the trans men could listen a while before becoming spokeswomen or leaders in women's movements.

MumUnderTheMoon · 10/01/2019 13:25

How often do any of you who are women describe yourself as such. I mean on a daily basis. I am a cis gender female and "woman" is not the most vital of desciptors I would attribute to myself. I mean do any of you really spend all day lounging around focusing all your energy on your womanliness. Jobs don't make a woman, clothes don't make a woman, a uterus doesn't make a woman, xx chromosomes don't make a woman I could go on. I just know I am one which is why I am one.

Fcuk · 18/02/2019 21:45

I think we know what biology is regardless of views ..... Think the question should be what makes a female or male feminine or masculine. In this modern world of how you identify and how others view you

1forAll74 · 25/07/2019 02:13

Well,if you have to ask,what is a woman,I don't think you are ready.or quite capable of understanding anything really.

But there are different types of women, many in fact, but the ones I am thinking about, are the caring types of women, and then the ones who are so up themselves with stupid thoughts and ideas,that bore people to tears,and go nowhere.

Zaibatxu · 06/11/2020 14:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Blackberrybunnet · 07/01/2021 15:11

Surely it is the presence of the Y chromosome that causes the embryo to become male. Therefore, a human with no Y chromosome would be female. A male human might have any number of X chromosomes, but Y is dominant and defines the sex. Now, it is some time since I took basic biology, so perhaps I am wrong ... if somebody knows better, I am happy to concede

Ivegotkids · 05/03/2021 04:24

Why are we never asking what a man is? Because we know. This question is so ridiculous. Being a woman isnt a metaphysical state. Its an objective reality.

BeagleEagle · 10/03/2021 19:25

@MxJackMonroe

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Hi Jack

Pleasure to see you, I do have to admit that non-binary identities do confuse me. The main reason is that I don't 'feel like a woman' and I've never met anybody who actually does. None of my female friends say they feel like a woman, they're just.. them. I think maybe there's a false belief that full on women have this innate comfort security of knowledge that they are women, but I don't actually think they do.. I adhere to some gender roles and don't adhere to others. I watched sci fi as a kid and have had all lengths of hair. Makeup has been on and off through the years and at school all my friends were boys, they're all women now.

I'm happy that you've reached out as a prominent person who describes themselves as outside of the gender binary, because whilst I really want to be on board with the whole thing, I can't help but wonder if a lot of people who describe themselves as 'non-binary' have the misplaced feeling that they aren't women because they don't do women things and feel women feelings, even though no woman fully adheres to social roles, no woman is 100% comfortable with her sex characteristics (i'd sooner have no breasts, personally) and no woman has this strong innate sense of womanhood.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and I am happy to see the olive branch being held out.

WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis · 27/05/2021 13:33

What a great thread!

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