What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

I agree with Flora's definition. I've got no idea whether I can reproduce because I've never tried. I have infertile friends, friends who've had hysterectomies, but we're all of the sex with the potential to give birth. So women.

A woman is anyone that identifies as a woman, surely?

No.

No Jack, kleinfelter, as described above is a condition affecting males.
You cannot make a woman.

Hi Jack, I wasn't on the last thread but read it with great interest.

The what is a woman question is fascinating. The olymipic committee massively struggled to find a definition of what is a woman. As far as I know they still don't have a definition - it's too bloomin tricky.

I don't think coopting intersex conditions or women born with physical abnormalities (e.g. missing uterus) is relevant as these are medical issues. Its about the same as saying someone born with a deformed leg isn't fully human because humans are bipedal confused Very offensive

I wasn't being offensive. I was responding to other posters definitions of 'what makes a woman' with WOMEN who defy those descriptions. I haven't said anywhere that those WOMEN are not WOMEN, and nor would I, because it is not a belief I hold. Goodness me.

A woman is anyone that identifies as a woman, surely?

You can't identify as something if you can't define it.

Jack, what is your answer to the question?

The what is a woman question is fascinating. The olymipic committee massively struggled to find a definition of what is a woman. As far as I know they still don't have a definition - it's too bloomin tricky.

Interesting.

Those women don't defy the definitions. You are trying to co-opt women with genital disorders to justify saying that a person with a penis is like a woman with a genital abnormality. However a penis is not a genital abnormality. It is normal for a male human (a man).

I've thought about this before, and personally, i can't come up with any definition of a woman that makes sense to me without referring to biology and the biological definition of a woman.

As pp say, being of the sex class that produces eggs. A woman born with physical abnormalities (e.g. non functioning vagina, absent ovaries or uterus, etc) is not less of a woman.

Intersex conditions are rare, and don't make the biological definitions of someone who has normal male or female biology as a man or a woman irrelevant.

I genuinely have no idea how you can define a woman separately from her biology without resorting to gender stereotyping.

In 99.9% of cases it is not tricky in the least. In 0.1% of cases it is tricky.

Well, you might not have said that those women weren't women, Jack, but that's generally where that line of reasoning goes, isn't it? Or why else would you bring it up?

The usual rebuttal to the biological definition of women by those who believe in gender identity is that trans men don't believe that they are women. They are perfectly free to believe whatever they want about themselves and live their lives as they please, but biologically they remain (a subset of) women. And I can't help feeling people would be better served by accepting that, when all the evidence I've seen tends to point towards that being a happier outcome for people than a lifetime spent fighting a biological fact.

Jack, what is your answer to the question?

Under consideration. I started to answer it for the last thread but it ended up as a full essay, which is where the MRKH and Klinefelter references come from. And Shania Twain. And some Germaine Greer. Etc.

I'm interested in other peoples viewpoints and definitions to round off my own. I'm constantly asked by a small persistent group of people why I accepted a 'womans award' when I identify as non-binary and have been told I am unwelcome in womens spaces. The same people also tell me I can't change my biology and I am a woman. It's all very confusing. So I am interested to know, from as many viewpoints as possible, what makes a woman?

The IOC do have a current set of rules regarding trans competitors but this is down to testosterone levels, not genitals/chromosomes.

Guardian link

You are trying to co-opt women with genital disorders to justify saying that a person with a penis is like a woman with a genital abnormality.

I'm absolutely not doing this. Please don't invent things I haven't said.

Jack I think those people are asking you to think about why you would use women's space if you think you are not a woman as a thought exercise.

Where are you going with this then? This issue was raised in the context of trans discussions. That is usually how intersex conditions are brought into discussions about trans. The question "what is a woman" is "what is a woman when males are being described as women?" not a question about technical classification of a tiny number of people with intersex conditions.

If it all becomes too confusing just remember this can't change my biology and I am a woman.

How you dress/act has nothing to do with the sex you are, you can wear and act however you choose if it makes you happy.

What defines a women is very simple what makes it confusing is all the "identifying" nonsense. Too many words and too many people trying to change a very simple definition.

Women are a biological class of people who are treated differently from 'norm' due to having the messy task of bearing young. Disorders do not change that. Women who can't or choose not to have children do not change that' "feminine'' and ''masculine'' are things we made up Togo around that and men saying they feel feminine so they must be women are insulting those of us who don't feel that way but still have to put up with being women. We are not dresses or flowers or fairydust. we are just humans.

Previous years I was told because I didn't feel male or female, just me, I must be 'CIS'. Because you only know if you feel something else apparently. Now people are saying they don't feel that way and calling themselves non binary. Which is it'

I think that for most of the population a woman is someone with XX chromosomes and the sexual characteristics of a female. There is obviously some blurring of the edges with some genetic and physical disorders. The Daily Mail and the Sun are evil bastards.
However, I think the question we were trying to ask on your webchat Jack was, as a trans person who does not 'feel like a woman', what does that mean? I have a trans child and am really struggling with this: I am a biological woman who does not particularly subscribe to the modern ideal of femininity; male dominated job, androgynous appearance, outdoorsy, no makeup, short hair etc .Daily mail bastards I have no doubt that I am female.
My child does not feel like a girl and does not identify as one, but I don't know what it means: is it a reaction to society's current fashion of boxing and naming everything neatly rather than allowing expression, or is it a mental health condition linked to depression and not being comfortable in their own skin so trying to find a reason? Gutter press wankers. I want to understand because I am afraid for my child. A body dysmorphia where they hated their legs would be treated with drugs and therapy. A dysmorphia where they hate their secondary sex organs is treated with therapy and the offer of eventual top surgery because they 'don't feel like a girl'.
Please excuse my cut and paste prevention measures. Hopefully you still get my drift. Thanks

In short: I think the reason you are asked 'what is a woman' is that having been born female you have rejected being female as you don't feel that way, and it is something we don't understand as for most of us being a woman, being female, isn't something we feel, it is something we are..

If a person was genuinely 'misidentified ' due to ambiguous genitals but had been raised a woman I would have no problem with them sharing facilities as they were socialised women. This would not change the fact they were male though.

And before anyone accuses me of reducing people to genitals ...

Yes, I think they're pointing out an inconsistency: you don't think you're a woman so it's not very consistent to still consider yourself eligible for awards to celebrate women.

As to not being welcome in women's spaces, I guess the same applies, though it would depend what spaces we're talking about of course - are we talking loos or women's groups? But I think the point is that if you don't consider yourself a woman then what is happening in women's spaces that you would consider relevant to you? What would you ask from them and what would you bring?

That they think you remain a woman is easily consistent with both positions. Women's groups, for example, prioritise women's issues, not trans or non binary issues, and they want to give awards to women. If you feel so negatively about being a woman that you don't want to be one, that's antithetical to their aims.

Jack do you see why I find it offensive when transwomen say they knew they were female from the start because they like dresses and dolls playing with the girls?

Agree that it is purely biology.

I use a wheelchair. That doesn't mean humans can't walk, or that I am not human as I cannot walk.

Incidentally, have you read the opinions of the intersex "community" of being co-opted into the trans debate?