Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

Batteries - In my maybe naive eyes the pregnancy and breastfeeding issue is really quite simple - women should be the ones making the choices in all aspects, how they give birth, how they feed the baby, if and when they return to work etc. Then men, the woman's place of employment, the state and everyone surrounding that woman should support her and assist her in those choices. This may look like men doing far far more than they currently do (eg getting up in the night) to allow the woman to rest and breastfeed. Or it may be them equally sharing formula feeding. It might be the place of employment allowing the woman time and place to express milk, or flexible working hours, it might be allowing the man flexible hours. There are so many different options that a woman could choose and make work - given the freedom and knowledge that she would be fully supported, that her career would not be affected (I think this should be in law) and that the man, if there is one, takes his responsibility as seriously as she does.

The first couple of years of a baby's life are important and valuable and should be treated as such. Pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding do take their toll on women's bodies and that can't be swept away.

Are you going to write it Erin? Sounds great

Thanks Buffy

This is one of the problems with talking treatments in my view. The dynamics in the therapeutic relationship can so easily distort the exchange between the two people, and in the absence of a record there is no accountability.

Anyway, Felas I rule nothing out. What would be the goal of such a book? MN has published quite a few books about all sorts of things. bell hooks already covers some of the issues I consider to be central. What would such a book add that is not already in another book?

Hi everyone - I've realised I asked to start a discussion on a topic that upsets me too much to track the discussion / talk clearly about. Sorry everyone. I don't think I can add anything without going into a deeply personal rant. I just felt that the process of becoming a mother was when I felt most 'female' and also most dismissed/infantilised by wider society (doctors, midwives, colleagues, extended family etc).

Rant away maybe we can help?

I didn't feel dismissed or infantilised at all during pregnancy. Quite the opposite. The only times I felt it happened were in the, mercifully few, dealings afterwards with the health visitor (still feel an idiot for not realising it was optional to see her) and the NCT feeding counsellor, both of whom were patronising and unhelpful.

Batteries I found your post and responses last night thought provoking. Definitely interested in listening if you want to rant. Others may have helpful things to say.

I think at the core of it was the idea that female physiology was somehow a 'problem'.

Difficult pregnancy? - pregnancy isn't an illness you know, chin up and get on with it

Pregnant? - Oooh you'll have to give birth, women are crap at that, you'll probably have insert horror story here happen to you

Planning the birth? - oh no don't plan it, what if it goes wrong? Don't you know women are really bad at dealing with plans changing because their simple minds can't cope with multiple possible outcomes? Better to leave it in the hands of other people - why not let FIL dictate where you give birth, and the medical professionals dictate the kind of birth you have (I didn't allow the first, and resisted the second, but it was exhausting pushing back)

Struggling to recover from difficult birth? - stop being so revoltingly female and just GET ON WITH IT

Breastfeeding? - maybe you should formula feed. Then the dad can 'bond' and you can leave your baby

Pain breastfeeding? - oh stop whinging woman, loads of medical professionals don't even believe tongue is an issue, because women are just hysterical fools who make problems up

Hormonal after birth that affects your rationality and decision making, giving you driving aversion and slight agoraphobia? - ummm didn't you know we all pretend that doesn't happen? Never mind all the other women you found online that experienced similar, never mind how amazingly common it seems to be (anecdotally). Women have moved beyond being controlled by hormones and to suggest otherwise makes you an oppressor of women (something said to me on MN that I reeled from tbh)

DH was wonderfully supportive and just kept saying how shit the unfairness of it all is. But I just experienced so many crappy attitudes from so many different places.

It really upsets me to read there is a radfem analysis that women being the reproducers is the cause of our oppression and therefore the problem is female physiology (the babies in jars type stuff). Argh that makes me want to scream. The problem is the response to our physiology surely. Otherwise aren't we saying 'wouldn't it be better if women were men?'

NO IT FUCKING WOULDN'T CREATING LIFE IS AMAZING NOT SOMETHING WE SHOULD OUTSOURCE TO ROBOTS

As I said, something I'm very emotional about. Sorry in particular to lass who is trying to have a rational discussion about it which I'm not sure I'm capable of

lass I have found your responses interesting.

I think for me pregnancy and breastfeeding are similar in that they are uniquely female. However the big difference is that in pregnancy your choices are suffer through or abort the pregnancy; whereas in breastfeeding you can abandon the feminine act of breastfeeding without also abandoning the child, because you can formula feed. If that makes sense.

I wonder if you had hated pregnancy as much as breastfeeding, and it had made you ill and unable to work through much of it - do you think you would have continued the pregnancy and if so, how would you have felt about the fact that you as the female were having to sacrifice working and health for the sake of this child, a choice the father didn't have to make?

....hypothetically. No pressure to answer obviously.

No need to apologise to me. You probably need to discuss this.

I wonder if you had hated pregnancy as much as breastfeeding, and it had made you ill and unable to work through much of it - do you think you would have continued the pregnancy and if so, how would you have felt about the fact that you as the female were having to sacrifice working and health for the sake of this child, a choice the father didn't have to make?

Difficult to answer as I had such an easy pregnancy but I suspect that as the pregnancy was unplanned but very welcome, not likely to be repeated , was finite with a much wanted outcome I would have continued.

Have you had any help other than posting here?

Oh no batteries that's me explaining it badly. It definitely isn't that women's physiology is a problem. Let me go find a more articulate link! Sorry .....

www.radfemcollective.org/what-is-radical-feminism/
elegantgatheringofwhitesnows.com/?p=1245 (scroll past the bullet list at the top)

The way I interpret it is that there are various gender roles associated with our biology that are harmful to women and prevent us reaching equality with men.
Attitudes like - if you want to breastfeed then you can't do this at work or in public, you have to do it in private, preventing women from being able to participate fully in society

• you need to work 60 hours a week to perform at a high level at work, if you have children and need to care for them (school pick up etc)you've chosen to give up your career.
• women have a stronger maternal instinct so are naturally more suited to childcare
• all the stuff you've listed

Plus all the stuff you've mentioned.
(Some) Radical feminists want to get rid of the gender roles associated with biological sex so that women participate equally with men. This would involve some major restructuring of society. For example, the recent proposal to allow female MPs to breastfeed during debates and votesin the houseof commons is a radical solution - saying that breastfeeding and working aren't incompatible and setting an example of a work environment that allows women to do both.
I would argue shared parental leave is also radical because it tackles the assumption that women are more risky employees because they might take parental leave at its root, by providing the same leave to men.

Hope that makes sense. I'm not an expert at all and may have got a bit overenthusiastic!

For example, the recent proposal to allow female MPs to breastfeed during debates and votesin the houseof commons is a radical solution - saying that breastfeeding and working aren't incompatible and setting an example of a work environment that allows women to do both

It is incompatible. The idea that you can take a baby into work , breastfeed it and carry on working whilst doing it is pie in the sky.

Where exactly do you think the babies are going to go in between feeds? Do you think there should be creches attached to every workplace where they can be popped back to after each feed?

Do you think everyone else's working day , whether co-workers' or clients or customers' can be interrupted whilst a woman is feeding a baby?

Batteries, I understand where you are coming from re pregnancy and breastfeeding. I had such a struggle post-birth with pressures regarding work/family and honouring my instincts as a mother. I felt that the work I was doing in raising a child just wasn't valued at all. The only way I was 'contributing' to society was by getting back to paid work as quickly as possible. I took longer than anyone else at my work for mat leave (9 months) and felt under such pressure to go back even though I was still breastfeeding. Ended up going back sooner than was comfortable for me and my child. We ended up in a situation where she reverse cycled and did all her feeding at night instead because she just wouldn't take a bottle. It was incredibly stressful.
I'm now in the situation of feeling like I'm stagnating at work - I went back part-time but I'm not seen as 'committed' to my job and there is no chance of promotion or stretching myself unless I go full-time. I'm actually thinking I'm going to have to leave and become self-employed somehow to get the work/life balance and the opportunity to actually use my brain somehow. It's incredibly frustrating.

Batteries, your experiences sound horrendous. Pregnancy, birth and breast feeding is such a vulnerable time in a woman's life. It is so important to be listened to and understood. Who and why did anyone think your FiL had any say in what happened with you and your pregnancy? Pregnancy is a woman's time and I am of the opinion that men should completely take a back seat. For me I needed my mum, sisters, female friends and colleagues. They were reassuring and nurturing and my relationships with them were deepened and strengthened. Did you have much female support?

I have seen the same attitude of women making life more difficult for other women by talking about the impact of hormones on MN. It is a complete nonsense and anti-feminist denial of female biology. It made me angry and I challenged it, I am so sorry that it sent you reeling.

Oh dear lass no need to jump down my throat! Of course not all work is compatible with feeding. But going to listen to a debate and vote could be, depending on that mother and that child. I think it's good to take the decision away from the employer and societies opinions about where it is or isn't appropriate to breastfeed and give it to the mother, who is an adult and best placed to decide what works best for her.

I think it's good to take the decision away from the employer and societies opinions about where it is or isn't appropriate to breastfeed and give it to the mother, who is an adult and best placed to decide what works best for her

No it is not appropriate to decide a breastfeeding mother's choice trumps that of her employer's. It might work beautifully for her but she is not the only person in the equation.

Why should it be any of the employers business as long as the employee is undertaking everything expected of them to a satisfactory level?
To me, saying some people don't want to see breastfeeding is discriminatory and not an acceptable reason.

Why should it not be the employer's business?

OK I suppose it is hugely unreasonable for an employer to expect work to be done in exchange for being paid.

Sorry for the inconvenience and all that we'll just rearrange everything to fit in with your feeding schedule. Doesn't matter that your work won't be done on time or anything tedious like that.

You haven't answered what you think should be done with babies once they have been fed- where do they go? Who looks after them?

To me, saying some people don't want to see breastfeeding is discriminatory and not an acceptable reason

Who said that ? I said nothing about people not wanting to see breastfeeding.

I said a mother insisting on breastfeeding at work no matter how inconvenient that is or how that affects co-workers or clients or customers is incompatible. I meant in the sense of achieving what her employer is expecting to achieve. Nothing whatsoever to do with not wanting to see breastfeeding- that's your interpretation.

Doesn't matter that your work won't be done on time or anything tedious like that. that's why I said Why should it be any of the employers business as long as the employee is undertaking everything expected of them to a satisfactory level?
Work not being done on time clearly isn't meeting a satisfactory level of performance and should be managed irrespective of the cause.
If a woman can breastfeed and still complete her duties as required, why should an employer care?

Where babies go once they've been fed would be an individual choice for that family, as would the choice for a mother to even be at work or be a SAHM so I don't think its adding anything if I list all the ways babies and work could be combined....

Batteries your experiences sound very very familiar.

I completely forgot that I was the owner of my body until about a year in, by which point I was a shell of a person. I lost about 2 stone from my original weight after having my first baby, kept telling health visitors and gps that I was ill and they unanimously insisted I had pnd. Finally 9 months later had a blood test and discovered my thyroid levels were dangerously out of whack. I had told them repeatedly that I WAS NOT DEPRESSED. But no, I was written off as hysterical and quietened down with ADs.