Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

Sorry, that should read ..

Which does NOT mean that you're one of the people...

Stockholm syndrome is a thing. Plus, he's human, of course he is. You can't see a person that you know and love to be just a tool of the patriarchy (I don't think anyone is, BTW, but we have all been influenced and conditioned by it. Men and women.)

I do think that it's very very relevant that we live in such close quarters with men, because it makes sexism so familiar that it is both invisible and unconscious.

You don't have to actively oppress somebody to be a part of patriarchy (or white supremacy, or whatever it is).

Have you read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft? I'm not suggesting that your DH is an abuser (I don't know your history here) but I found it very enlightening in terms of male entitlement in general. There is an analogy in there about a young man who has grown up being told that a particular area of land is his and that he will inherit it when he turns 18. So he turns 18 and he has all these plans for this piece of land and then he finds that people are all over it, using it as though it is public. He's friendly at first and assumes it's a misunderstanding but over time he becomes frustrated because every time he tries to get people to leave his land they keep saying "Don't be silly, this is public property! I can do what I like here!" and he doesn't understand why they won't believe him that it's actually his and then he becomes upset/angry that he can't do what he wants on his own land because everyone keeps treating it as though it's their own.

Male privilege is a bit like this in that men are silently promised all of this stuff as their very own, and they unconsciously believe it to be the truth even though they will outwardly say yes of course they believe in equality. They believe in equality but not this bit, this bit was meant for me, why are you being so mean and not letting me have what's rightfully mine? Except that it's never so transparent and it often comes out just as a general sense of annoyance and entitlement.

Here's another link to a piece in Feminist Current, which seems to match the topic here. It's the second message on the page.
www.feministcurrent.com/2016/05/28/20759/

It's from a woman who was a prostitute for a while, and she says she actually finds sex less enjoyable with her partner (who is apparently OK, at least she's not saying he's abusive) than when she did it for money. But the answer goes beyond that specific issue into the area of what kind of sex women might enjoy, if patriarchy weren't making it so difficult to get away from abusive sexuality.

I think it's very interesting to wonder what kind of sex might suit both women and men (heteronormativity admitted, but the conflicts are presumably less in same-sex relationships).

Interesting book recommendation which has just occurred to me to share - Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski.

Treat with caution (I haven't read it myself yet) but I have read an extract and she has some very interesting and fairly groundbreaking things to say about female sexuality, it might be worth reading.

PDF of book on women having societal Stockholm syndrome:

violentadegen.ro/wp-content/uploads/Loving-to-Survive-Graham.pdf

I have read why does he do that. Hugely eye opening and probably the beginning of my whole journey from miserable oppressed wife to wherever the fuck I am now.
Will look up the other book.

It's my opinion - and it is just an opinion - but I don't think that a relationship can come back from there having been abuse. I don't think there are any exceptions. Because there were ALWAYS some underlying thought processes and beliefs that allowed the abuse to manifest in the first place, and people don't change their beliefs and thought processes generally. Plus, it's much easier to fall into patterns with particular people when we have played them out before. It's why you tend to revert to your teenage roles when you visit your family.

Sorry I really need to go to bed :(

Yes, I agree with Bertie.

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/04/29/feminist-therapy/

The top question/answer in this link sums it up so well!

Me too Bertie!

Ooh thanks for the book almond! Never going to get any sleep tonight!

I think that answer on Feminist Current is right - you have to make an effort to make new psychological associations, to get away from trying to make trauma sexy.

people don't change their beliefs and thought processes generally

Whilst a relationship may not be able to come back from past abuse, I do not agree that "people can't change" or "people don't change".

This is not quite the same question as whether a relationship can come back from past abuse. It is something I feel strongly about, that is all.

The difficulty and the pain involved in changing yourself is easy to underestimate, and "you can't change other people". You can't change your past either. In the future, you may not always be who you are now, but regardless how much time has passed, you always will have been who you were.

To my mind this last bit is why staying in a relationship when there has been abuse in the relationship in the past may be particularly problematic. For as long as you are in the relationship, you will be in a relationship with someone who abused you in the past. This will remain the case no matter now much they change, and no matter how much you change, no matter how much forgiveness takes place, no matter how much time passes. This does not sound like a great idea to me.

Sometimes, turn the other cheek is a bollocks doctrine, and get both cheeks the hell out of there whilst you still can is the wiser choice. Forgiving can be done from a distance, if forgiving is important to you at all.

BertieBotts

Wow. Some great posts here. Thank you Bertie in particular

A lot of this is hitting home for me at the moment, I'm not in a space where I want to share it right now, but I still wanted to say thanks for the thread, the links, and some really interesting food for thought.

I note the feminist current link suggests taking a break from sex, which I was also going to suggest.

It's amazing to start to put thought processes and understanding behind feelings. I too am finding last night's/this morning's posts really helpful. Thanks all. And Mamaka for your question.

Interesting book recommendation which has just occurred to me to
share - Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski

This is a brilliant book - read it a few months ago and will have to dig it out again. Now going to get DH to read it too!

I've just ordered it on Kindle so I can read it too :) I keep passing on the recommendation without knowing what it is actually like.

Bertie your posts were spot on. I went from childhood abuse to abusive relationships at a young age and experienced a lot of type 1 sex (and rape, too).

Something that really helped me was having a two year break from sex, relationships, and generally trying make myself attractive to men. I stopped shaving everywhere, grew my pubic hair (started shaving my legs and armpits again because I find hair there itchy, but kept the full bush ) stopped wearing makeup, stopped drinking / taking drugs etc.

I went back to memories of my body before being corrupted by harmful sexual experiences. I remembered getting a lot of enjoyment from climbing ropes as a young girl so did a lot of rubbing stuff between my legs with clothes on. Explored my body in the bath but I find water a crap lubricant. Bought a dildo but chucked it - too big. Eventually found my clitoris and had an orgasm completely on my own and on my own terms.

I then tried to find out how many orgasms it's pleasurable for me to have in a row (two, or three with a massive break) as society seems obsessed with multiple / repeating orgasms.

Only after that did I venture back into the world of relationships armed with the knowledge of what I wanted men to do for me and set out to discover what kind of 'trade' of pleasure I found acceptable. I think that my sexual ownership then naturally led me into relationships with men who found female pleasure (rather than female submission) arousing.

Thanks, it's been a while since I did any posting like that (of the angry/revelation kind) and it was quite refreshing. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences but glad that you have found some freedom in taking control for yourself, too.

I am enjoying the book but finding it quite emotionally hard work to read which I wasn't really expecting.

I've also ordered come as you are. Looking forward to getting stuck in!
Dh and I experimented last night with things I thought I might like but I didn't really enjoy it, my mind kept wandering and I couldn't really be bothered. Afterwards I asked him if enjoyed it and he said no because I didn't enjoy it. I'm finding it all to be too much effort at the moment!

I'm glad he noticed you didn't enjoy it at least!

I never managed to keep up with book club but would defo be up for a CAYA thread...

It is good that your husband recognised you weren't enjoying it. So many men make the excuse that they have no way of telling if their partner is enjoying or even consenting to what they're doing.