Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

Actually that's a bit like that Rosenhan experiment isn't it!

Lass

In families with local SAHDs or nannies, bringing baby in to feed and then taking away is possible.

Employers do have to make reasonable provision for Breastfeeding mothers, usually a quiet place to express and a fridge.

Finally 9 months later had a blood test and discovered my thyroid levels were dangerously out of whack. I had told them repeatedly that I WAS NOT DEPRESSED

I worked with someone who was for over a year told that certain physical and increasingly unpleasnt symptoms she was experiencing were due to depression. It wasn't a pregnancy related issue.

She ended up doing her own research and discovered what she had was a rare hormonal problem which if untreated could be fatal (I can't remember the details now)

She took great delight in telling her doctor that of course she was depressed, who would not be depressed if doctors had misdiagnosed a potentially fatal illness for over 12 months?

If a woman can breastfeed and still complete her duties as required, why should an employer care?

And how realistic is it that duties will be completed where deadlines have to be met or appointments kept or other people's schedules to be considered?

Baterries your experience sounds awful,i had a bad(ish) pregnancy but no one listened because baby was growing fine so,i got on with it. I didn't have the best birth ever some of the staff was shit,i was terrified of going home with a new baby,but baby was fine,professionals said it'll be fine so i got on with it. I hated breastfeeding, i had no support except for my mum for two weeks,but she was very pro bf even though she had no personal experience of it and baby was fine so i got on with it. Yup i got on with it,but as a result i haven't felt that baby was mine for months on end...just something i had to get on with,to get through.it felt more like a babysitting job that i just had to go through until someone,no idea whom , came and took her away. Until i realised she had really bad reflux, and even though professionals said baby was fine and just get on with it,i knew she wasn't fine and i took control. Demanded gaviscon for her,swapped to bottles and just stopped getting on with it and making sure both me and her were happy.

P.s. On the birth plan thing, i have seen it being an issue for many women when things went wrong. Feelings of depression,inadequacy ,that they haven't really given birth because they were "unable" to stick to the plan. So my advice is...by all means have a plan,we all have and like to have some idea of what we'd like to happen during birth..but don't make it the be all and end all. Healthy and safe mum and baby is the ultimate goal,no matter how they both got there.

In my experience by 9 months I could easily have fed baby in 10 or 15 mins, and expressed from the other side in another 10 mins, so during a lunch break for example. It doesn't have to impact other people's schedules.
My sis went back to work when her ds was 6 months old and my mum used to take him into the car park where my sister would nip out for 20 mins at lunchtime. Obviously once you're back at work you can no longer feed on demand but you can still breastfeed and keep to a work schedule.

Very good advice Rebel I don't think "birth plans" were discussed when I was pregnant beyond do you want your partner there or not ? I had an elective caesarean.

From what I've read on here it seems to be the case that something which was meant to allow women freedom and their own responsibility becomes too rigid to be helpful.

lass those kinds of questions are how we end up with a society where women are penalised for breastfeeding, which is something only a mother can do. That kind of attitude plus loads of other similar ones is why we have a work environment where men are more easily able to progress.
As a feminist I would like to see companies push the barriers and not assume that e.g. a breastfeeding mother who wants to feed at work is not going to be able to perform. Its bias because there's no evidence that is the case.

Felas that would really worked if everyone involved wasn't so human.
First of all not all fields are safe or can be accommodating for breastfeeding. You'd end up with either law suits based on discrimination or women slowly avoiding certain fields as they don't offer the same "perks". How would it work on a small scale? Like small businesses and companies on small premises,like volunteering etc The place i volunteer at has a small toilet,an even smaller kitchen(no room to sit down) and the back room is where we work,sort donations etc so wouldn't be safe. Not to mention it is very small as well.
Second you cannot predict a baby won't cry,fuss,have a dirty nappy etc which all needs to be taken care of there and then. You also can't predict an emergency,be it something happening in the workplace that needs sorted now,or emergency call,video conference etc. Sometimes things go to shit. It would be ofc exceptional.
Third it seems like something that could eventually be implemented for women working high paid jobs,but what about women in minimum wage jobs,like cleaning,working in pubs,working in little greasy cafes etc. Won't that make the class divide even higher?

I guess the way i see it ( and i might be very worked) it's not something that can actually be applied everywhere for everyone.

So should we accept as a society that a mother hasn't got the same opportunities as men? Or they do, but only if they are prepared to fit a male work model? If not, what can we do about it?
I think that's why I identify more with radical feminism. Because I don't want to work within existing parameters and accept there's only so far feminism can go.
Coincidentally a cleaner I talked to the other day only works for clients where she can take her toddler. And I would be fine with that. As long as the cleaning I pay for gets done, why is it any skin off my nose? And it helps that woman immeasurably as she doesn't need to pay for childcare or be separated from her still breastfeeding child.

Lots of good points and there would of course be limits. But I bet there some creative solutions as well, and reasonable adjustments. Isn't that how disability legislation works?

Not that being g a parent is a disability but in terms of working around issues because we believe we should and because there are good reasons to.

Hadn't thought about the divide in terms of it working more for high paid jobs. Although maybe if it starts to happen there, with increasing women in senior posts we'd get a more can do approach filtering down.

Definitely definitely the more we can do for those in parliament the better for us all.

I've never worked in a small business. How is disability legislation applied? Although I remember listening to a friend with a small number of employees express anger about minimum wage, maternity leave etc. It did rather feel like if she couldn't do the right thing her business wasn't financially viable. Apologies if anyone is a small business owner, I know it's not that easy. There are probably good responses to be made in that point.

Felas do you really believe that no matter what job a woman does absolutely every work place can make this possible for all women? That's how i look at it.

As for the example you gave that's great and i wouldn't have any issues with it either. I assume the lady is self employed? It's a bit different working in a team with specific tasks and deadlines,and doing the work in a company/business where you don't actually see a face to try and reason with,rather than a customer that you have some kind of rapport established. But i guess it could be doable.Also i might be completely wrong,but by the sounds of it,she can afford to actually reject clients...many women don't.

Coincidentally a cleaner I talked to the other day only works for clients where she can take her toddler. And I would be fine with that

I would not. I have had a cleaner who did this. She was paid for 3 hours per day which translated into 3 hours spent in my house rather than cleaning it. It also resulted in a breakage of an item of great sentimental value. I didn't have a toddler at the time , it wasn't up to me to make my house toddler proof.

Hadn't thought about the divide in terms of it working more for high paid jobs

I'm in a high paid job. I employed a nanny. It would not have worked. Oh in theory it all sounds fine. The reality is the clients' needs come first. If I had a deadline to meet, meetings to attend they would not be interested or impressed if I wanted to re schedule because I wanted a full hour lunch break to breastfeed.

No not at all rebel. I expect some jobs won't be suitable. But I think the status quo is to reject the notion out of hand rather than consider whether it is actually feasible. I think that in many jobs it would be possible and I'd like to see it get serious consideration as a way too allow women to balance work and family. Breasfeeding is one of very few things that Dad actually can't share.
At the moment I think people just think "well that's just ridiculous" and don't give it any more thought. Which is why I like what the house of commons is doing because it has thought about it and deliberately challenged the status quo

Lass. When i mentioned it i mentioned it thinking of the couple companies that offer expressing rooms,have adequate lunch/staff rooms,some even have creches,proper breaks etc. That's never going to happen in the local fish and chips or a tiny Greggs or whatever,as even the will was there there's just not enough space. Dunno maybe i'm talking out of my ass.. It's been known to happen

Lass

I expressed every day at lunchtime for six months after returning to work. It never took me an hour, nor did a feed, though I appreciate some babies take longer.

Had DH been a SAHD and lived near work, I could've fed. I would have expected him to handle any nappy stuff though.

Here is the NHS page:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/breastfeeding-back-to-work.aspx

Thank you all for being so lovely is good hearing others thoughts

Those suggestion are good on the link The law is pretty weak though isn't it.

I think I need to go back and read the beginning of the discussion. I think I'm on the wrong track.

If it's to work out how it could happen with zero impact on any aspect of business/output then that is very tricky indeed.

I was thinking more of how to make it work with minimum impact. Maternity leave, eg, comes at a cost and massive adjustments for business. But is generally (or increasingly?) accepted as right.

Apologies if I'm not quite getting the discussion. it's good to have a go anyway!

I think equality legislation had always been a bit weak when it tries to sell itself on the benefits to business. It think its good to be positive - there are indeed benefits but that only goes so far. I think a lot of the benefit of a more equal society is difficult to translate to a direct business benefit.

equality legislation had always been a bit weak when it tries to sell itself on the benefits to business
100% agree

trying... Holiday entitlements and sickness entitlements have impacts on businesses as well and yet in the UK it is accepted as normal for holiday and sickness policies to be in place.

The benefits to businesses might not be immediately apparent, however, by adhering to and even improving on legislated for holidays, sickness, compassionate and/or maternity leave, businesses show that they value the skills and efforts of a diverse and wide ranging workforce, and they in turn benefit from those diverse skills.

Diverse work forces are good for business, therefore it's good businesses that encourage them by attracting them to themselves.

Businesses are all over delayed gratification when it comes to employee incentives...when they want to be. Accomodating breastfeeding could just be another employee incentive.

However, I'm approaching the point made about baby care from a different place - in that I wouldn't have been able to outsource care / get DH to do it. My baby wanted ME. I get very uncomfortable about discussions about work when it's casually dropped in that women can go back after a few months yadayadah when very often this is not the case.

Suggesting to me I leave my 3m old with her dad for 6hrs while I go to work was as laughable to me as suggesting I detach my 6m baby bump to make work travel more convenient

Absolutely Batteries, feminists worked and continue to work hard so that women could work once they were married and had children, not so that they had to.