Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

I'm about to go to bed, so this is a crap time to start this, but is anyone up for a discussion about pregnancy and breastfeeding?

I found it really upsetting with difficult pregnancies and 'extended' (hate that term!) breastfeeding my children that I parted ways with a lot of feminists I know in real life . There was this attitude I came up against a lot that pregnancy 'isn't an illness' and that one should be back at work toot sweet, preferably in a few months, and just pretend the whole mucky business of physically possessing a womb and breasts happened to someone else.

I felt an anger I find hard to express in words at the utter dismissal of the idea that a women might need to sacrifice more time to a baby than the father due to the demands of breastfeeding on demand - and the idea that you can 'fix' that with formula feeding came up more than once. I find the whole idea of equal parenting from day one completely at odds with what I experienced - namely that my baby wanted me and my boobs, only me.

I do sometimes feel that a lot of feminists focus on the things where they can prove themselves equally able to men - something like having a baby that is inescapably feminine kind of gets kicked into the long grass as something that just weakens the wider fight.

Happy to go away and start my own thread if it's just me though

Even my tablet is embarassed to say clitoris. It prefers Google is.

Subliminal marketing Fela ?

Batteries I was upset about that for 4 years!! Actually post birth was when my anger at men really kicked off. I'm also off to bed but will remember to come back and talk more about this.

Breastfeeding is a very divisive thing amongst women I found. I think a lot of mums who choose not to have obviously chosen not to, so you are starting from a different viewpoint if you choose to continue. Those reasons can be quite multi-faceted so debating them can become a big tangle of emotions/culture/priorities/commitments/expectations and more. I've always gone by the mantra that I will do what feels best for my and DC. I find it hard when I hear women say the man is almost jealous of the DC using the boobs rather than them being 'his' and finding it a turn off (which I have actually heard quite often!). Maybe this is why I am single though as for me the kids come first, at least when they are under 2, which probably seems unhealthy to a lot of couples.

the man is almost jealous of the DC using the boobs rather than them being 'his' and finding it a turn off (which I have actually heard quite often!).
I have heard this and it is infuriating!!!!! Boobs are for feeding babies and it does no harm for men to leave them alone for a couple of years if needs be. Talk about entitlement!

batteries there is a radfem position about splitting biological sex from gender roles which might interest you? In a nutshell (I think but not an expert) the radfem position is that women's oppression as a class is rooted in their biological sex and ability to bear children. So the fact only women can birth and feed babies should be recognised (biology), but not used as a reason why women are inferior to men (gender roles). Hope that makes sense, I am very tired....

This is my position too. Breastfeeding is good for babies and mums, only women can do it, society should be supporting that and not sweeping it under the carpet as if its of no consequence.

I must be a slow reader. That experiment was both fascinating and terrifying. Thanks erin.

Erinacea - thanks for the link to the Rosenhan experiment - fascinating and terrifying in equal measures. I remember when my sister (in an abusive marriage) was doped up to the eyeballs on prozac thinking "why the fuck are people giving her drugs? Why aren't they supporting her in leaving her abusive twat of a husband?"

Re. clitoris, can I have a brief feminist happy dance. DS (aged 8) did sex ed at school this term - very much focused on knowing your own body. As we walked home from school we had the following exchange:
DS: "Did you know that just like boys' willies sometimes get stiff, there's a bit of girls that can get stiff too? I've forgotten the name, though..."
Me: "Clitoris?"
DS: "Yes, that was it!"
(Inwardly did a happy dance at the thought of girls actually learning the name for the bit that gives them pleasure rather than being stuck with "front bottom", "mini", "froo froo" and all the rest).

Cross post with Trying - love the fact that we picked out exactly the same words!

Yes I believe so buffy. I've only come across radfems on Mumsnet.

What is a radfem 'solution' to this (aware there will be more than one)? To attach value to female physical traits such that pregnancy and breastfeeding are valued not derided? Like some kind of awesome state support for childbearing women?

I really hate btw that companies have to pay maternity pay. I think the state should pay it.

Matilda earlier year I tried to leave my husband and somehow the conclusion was I was mistaken about our problems and depressed and I could get help for my reactions easier than he could for his anger. Ended up on high dose ADs and a bit of a mess. I sat in the GP surgery feeling like I was a 1950s woman in an asylum. Which I know sounds melodramatic but it was quite unreal. Psychiatric nurse who helped me for a while later was lovely. He was adamant that my marriage was the problem not me. He said he sees it time and again. Women in bad relationships with depression and anxiety given ADs.

Trying - thank god for a sane psychiatric nurse! "1950s woman in an asylum" absolutely nails it. (One of the feminist classics I think is just an incredible read is "The women's room" - the scene that has always haunted me is the bit about her polishing the crystal glasses that live in the cabinet and the canteen of silverware , both of which were given to them as wedding presents and they never use them, as make-work to get round the sheer pointless boredom of being a housewife at a time when a married woman had no other choices at all.)

I have stuff to say about breastfeeding and early parenting but it is too late for me. If the thread has not moved on/people want to discuss I will add thoughts tomorrow morning :)

For a while in the past I was really of the opinion that women should be able to take their babies with them to work and go about their life with baby/child in tow - why do we separate children off and shut them away from adult life anyway? (Probably because "adult life" tended to be a male sphere and there were always these handy womenfolk to take care of the children away from all that) But I don't know any more. I mean there is also an argument that many workplaces really aren't suitable for children. But I go around in circles for a bit because I start to think what if it was just normal, what would happen then?

I ended up at a position of saying/feeling that we need loads more flexibility in working practices because as it is many people face barriers to working, often due to caring roles, but also perhaps due to their own disabilities or limitations, and it would make sense for work to be more accessible. There is nothing physically stopping a person in a wheelchair from operating a till, for example, but stores generally hire able-bodied people because it's more convenient (and hence more profitable) for them.

I haven't got much further than this but I wanted to explore this in the context of feminism.

Batteries, the government refunds companies about 95% of SMP - so yes, they do pay it!

The idea that a woman should 'be back at work toot suite' sounds to me as unfeminist as that she should be a SAHM. Should being the objectionable word. Her body, her life, her choice.

but is anyone up for a discussion about pregnancy and breastfeeding?

Loved being pregnant. Almost cannot put onto words how much I hated breastfeeding. I loathed it. I was exhausted ; it revolted me being a milch cow 24 hours on tap, I was physically sick due to the oxycontin. It is the only time in my life I have hated being female and my female body. I was not in control of my life and I hated that too. I will never forgive my health visitor and the idiot woman from the NCT who pressurised and guilt tripped me into persevering long after I should have given up.

The idea that a woman should 'be back at work toot suite' sounds to me as unfeminist as that she should be a SAHM. Should being the objectionable word

Depends what you mean by "should ". I went back to work full time when my son was 2 months old. From the point of view of that weasel word "empowerment " always being financially independent and keeping my career on track was as empowering as I can imagine.

I have read this thread with interest, anger, sadness and a profound gratitude for my good fortune. I grew up in a matriarchal, feminist home. My mother did too, as did her parents. My father was raised in a matriarchal (but not really feminist) home.

I had read one of the threads started by the OP, on it a poster said something along the lines of "when faced with a man, I know that it is more likely than not that he will hurt me". This is a paraphrase from memory, so apologies if I have got that wrong. I was gobsmacked. My experiences could not have made me more different. When faced with a man, I expect to be listened to and respected as an equal.

As I read each post, I would think if only that poster's mum/dad/grandparents/teachers/therapists had done what mine had, they would be in a better place than they are now. And I realised that it was a million different, small things from lots of different people who knew that worth isn't dependent on sex that has made me "not afraid" of men.

The most memorable and important lessons I learnt, were through what people I respected, did, rather than
what they said.

I had read one of the threads started by the OP, on it a poster said something along the lines of "when faced with a man, I know that it is more likely than not that he will hurt me"

That doesn't resonate with me either.

I was brought up by my mother and my maternal grandfather who whilst they fought constantly never disagreed about the value of education and encouraged me to be myself and do what I want. Like you I have a profound gratitude for my good fortune.

I have a memory of being about 6 and being with my grandfather in his solicitor's office , my grandfather proudly telling his solicitor his granddaughter was really good at reading , being given something to read, which I did, and the solicitor joking maybe she will be a lawyer too. This was mid 60s, in a small town in rural Scotland, my mother wasn't married and neither she nor my grandfather cared in the slightest.

LassWiTheDelicateAir

I had a similar dislike for breastfeeding. If I did it again (had another baby) I would either buy one of those nifty contraptions that straps the babs to you constantly and co sleep or I would formula feed from the start. Breastfeeding is, of course, natural but everything else about the way we raise babies isn't. Or should I say everything else about the way we are told we should raise babies isn't.

Buffy

Similar principles to the social model of disability, looks like?

I have no idea about that terminology. Sounds about right.

I am still curious as to whether an experiment involving presenting emotionally abused women or women with PND to CBT services and taking careful notes of the sessions and the outcome would pass ethics review.

Do you have any idea about this? It is a long way out of my field, this type of ethics review. It seems as if the ethically questionable part would be the treatment of the MH workers, who may feel themselves pathologised in the same way that the psychiatric system critiqued the Rosenham Study.

Do you have any insight into this? Should I move the question over to the Theory section?

tryingtomakesenseoflife, MatildaOfTuscany, Felascloak

I am glad you found it interesting. I have known about that experiment for a long time. It comes up from time to time, and I suppose I think of it as part of cultural understanding like the Zimbardo experiment or the Milgram experiment.

Perhaps this says more about the culture I grew up in, than a wider culture.

I have been thinking for a while now that there is a book in all of this:

Smash the patriarchy, but take care of the kids first: Radical Feminism on Mumsnet

or something like that. I tried a few titles including some choice ones:

We will tell you why it is not called Parentsnet: Radical Feminism on Mumsnet

etc etc