I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I posted this on relationships but didn't get any response:

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

Men have the gift of physical power. Women have the gift of sexual power.

Have we?

We worship men’s physicality at the altar of sport and aggressive action at work

Do we?

If this power is taken from a man, it is competition. At worst, he is an emasculated wimp

Is he?

I suppose I could critique the rest of that article but I can't be bothered. May I just says it's tosh and any article which has to refer to Miley Cyrus and the cast of Girls, with approval, to validate its point can probably, safely be ignored.

Oh please; I've painstakingly pointed out that the postwar mixed economy was not some golden age of respect between the genders. I know about marital rape, and clement freud, and hanging. Just that Fifty Shades of Grey and an internet awash with filth is not exactly the best we can do as a corrective.

And I don't think capitalism is bad. Neoliberalism is bad. Huge difference.

Lass, we agree!! It is appallng tosh. That is my point.

So why are you putting forward one random, badly written article in support of your case that feminism has got it wrong?

I don't think 'feminsm' has got it wrong.

Lots of 'feminsts' do say that women can empower themselves through sex. That obviously isn't the kind of feminism you approve of, and I'm with our on that. But it does exist, and is referred to as feminist.

I think we're in agreeance that feminism is a term hat accommodates a vast body of thought, some of which is credible and some of which is garbage. Kind of like socialism, or conservatism. Or almost anything else.

There are mllions of articles and blog posts like this floating about. I'm sure I could find lots more.

It took him 2 mins on Google to come up with a quote to avoid answering the latest awkward question . He never said answers any of them . Just slips slides away and runs off his mouth some more.

This thread has totally lost me. Thanks to everyone who tried to answer my op! What I'm gleaning from this thread is that actually there's usually good reason why a woman may hate men and that I shouldn't worry too much about it

Glad you came back mamaka

Morning all. Hi Mamaka. I did respond directly to your question earlier.

In summation, I guess all I'm really saying is an AREA of feminism has transmogrified into a kind of personal branding exercise - just another manifestation of a hyper-indvidualstic society. I would also say it has played a part in the neoliberalisation of sexual relations under the guise of some BS about sexual empowerment.

Surely this isn't a radical position: lots of other 'feminists' are themselves are making these criticisms of this species of 'feminism'. People keep assuming my criticism is of feminism per se when it is really of the kind of 'market feminism' currently impugned by lots of other feminists (Kat Barnyard for example). Broadly put, this kind of feminism makes choice and self-created identity a key metric; but people do not make choices completely freely or determine their own identities in a socioeconomic vacuum.

How is this relevant? Well, men and women will not be able to strike a good deal in this hyper individualistic culture. Ain't gonna happen. Maybe you think 'heteronormativity' is best rejected. But female friends of mine do seem to want relationships with men. Lots of women do even if you don't, so therefore we need to think about about what kind of culture best fosters heterosexual relations that are happy and equal. These female friends continually complain that men are shits: that they're selfish, adolescent, unfaithful, are on porn all the time. They're right, but a feminism that is really another form of liberal relativism, fetishizing choice over collectivist ideals, will only add to that problem.

It does seem that someone who isn't in lock-step with every tenet of liberal lefty feminism gets shouted at on here. I could just say 'down with the heteronormative kriarchy man and, like, let's just be free from oppression so as we can do what we want'. But that would be sophomoric rubbish wouldn't it?

someone who isn't in lock-step with every tenet of liberal lefty feminism gets shouted at on here.

Way to show you pay no attention to anyone's views except your own.
HAve another biscuit

"Maybe you think 'heteronormativity' is best rejected. But female friends of mine do seem to want relationships with men"

Use of the word heteronormativity doesn't mean that one thinks heterosexual relationships are bad, or indeed that one isn't in such a relationship. As I said above.

Communication is a two way street.

What views should I be paying attention to Fela?

And FWR is rarely categorised as promoting liberal lefty feminism. That might be a first!

Mamaka I, too am glad you came back.

I choose to deal with my hatred of men like this. I am boring. It is like a flow chart.

Decide what is okay. Decide what is not okay. Draw some lines.

Does what is happening cross my lines?

Yes. Okay. Leave the situation.

No? Okay. Am I safe towards myself and/or others? No? Okay. Leave the situation, safely.

Yes? Okay. Do I have energy to stay in the situation?

No? Okay. Leave the situation.

Yes? Do I give a shit?

No? Okay. Leave the situation.

Yes? Okay, stay in the situation. Use my boring, problem solving skills. Listen a lot. Read a lot. Try to resolve the situation.

This is why a women-only village is not my solution. Where this has been tried, what has happened is that power differentials have emerged. Fiction and science fiction describe this. Let us stay here smashing the patriarchy, and not retreat into our own sub-system where we reproduce the power structures that we were once taught.

etc etc.

In short: hate the game [patriarchy] not the players [the human race]. Change the game.

Fair point Jacquetta - and really that is mine to.

Returning to the OP's original point: it is certainly true that lots of women do want some kind of long term relationship with a man - though obviously not some kind of servile contract whereby she is exploited as a domestic drudge and privately owned sexual commodity. Those days have thankfully gone.

So therefore what kind of heterosexual compact should we have in the 21st century? Not sure any one knows (including me). It does seem that a culture of casual sex is reccomend by SOME 'feminists' as an alternative, but that just gets coopted by the capitalist system into another a way of objectifying and dehumanising women (and to a lesser extent men).

We need a new sexual and social morality I think. Not just 'if it feels good do it'.

Buffy: the topic is a lack of trust on the part of women in men; and whether the possibility of an equitable heterosexual relationship is a viable option. There was also discussion, prior to me coming on here, about the nature of gender identity. Surely that has to be analysed in a socioeconomic context?

Sorry, I maybe by contextualise and intertextualise a bit, and go off on tangents. But the construction of gender and the rejection of heteronormative values by certain schools of feminism does pertain to the question of whether men are bad or not, and how we should most intelligently think about them.

When I said return to the OP's point, I meant the subject of whether men are bad. I was also responding to things other posters had written in response and reflecting on my sisters experiences of dating and her belief that most men are horrible. I wasn't assuming anything about the the OP's circumstances. I don't know the OP. I can only come at this from a theoretical perspective.

Lots of other people were making points about biological determinism etc that did not DIRECTLY refer to the original question. Surely that happens on open discussion forums all the time?

Yes I do Buffy. Why?