I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I posted this on relationships but didn't get any response:

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

Men don't have a hive mind either, but there is another thread on Fwr about 'men who say they love women'. There doesn't seem to be much distinguishing on there.

I am not denying anyone their right to hate, love or feel indifferent as they feel. There does seem to be a bit of dissonance between the two threads.

Grim - that's different - we're not talking about all men saying they love women, but a certain type of bloke who proudly announces that they love women. Most of us have met them (Farage types in my experience).

It's different to say, there are a group of men who say they love women and they are like X, and feminists are like Y

To be honest, I have never encountered a man who said he loved women and really was an active feminist or did anything else to promote the wellbeing of womankind.

Men who genuinely care about women usually don't feel a need to state that. Some of them might even be as delusional as to think that it's just normal to view women as felllow human beings and not worth mentioning.

I'd agree with that, Vestal. Genuinely good people tends to get on with doing good things rather than flapping their gums telling you how good they are.

I don't want to live in a women only village, at all. For a start my beautiful ds isn't a woman. Secondly (and yes I know it's only a nice fantasy) I don't actually believe in segregation. So separating myself from men doesn't work for me at all.

I would however like to learn if there are ways to a) develop such firm boundaries that I respect myself and men follow suit or stay the fuck away and b) foster positive feelings towards men so that I may eventually meet the decent ones (not for a relationship but just to know them) and even possibly influence them eg my dh and ds.

Count me in for the women only village too please.

Well, the Yanks have got one:
www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/fashion/01womyn.html?_r=0

It is hard not to hate masculinity - violence, oppression, privilege.

It is also not irrational.

'We' are here blaming religion for all the problems right now but ultimately it is men. Men created religion to control and as a tool for power.

I often wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with men - they are universally violent and non-peaceful. (I know NAMALT etc before it is said)

Well, the Yanks have got one

They only allow lesbians, though.

(The article is a bit stupid - straight and bisexual women are lumped in with "transsexual women" ... as if that's even remotely the same thing. )

I can't believe there is actually a place that men, in the guise of trans women, have not tried to force their way into. They must not know about it yet, or it isn't around anymore

I often wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with men - they are universally violent and non-peaceful.

I have said this before - that there is something different in our biology that makes us more susceptible to violence. It didn't go down too well, as you can imagine.

I don't want to live in a women only village, at all. For a start my beautiful ds isn't a woman. Secondly (and yes I know it's only a nice fantasy) I don't actually believe in segregation. So separating myself from men doesn't work for me at all

I feel the same, I would miss the men in my life. I'm very lucky to know mostly nice blokes (there's the odd arsehole).

Can't imagine hating all men. It would feel odd to hate all of any group of people.

I often wonder if there is something fundamentally wrong with men - they are universally violent and non-peaceful

I have said this before - that there is something different in our biology that makes us more susceptible to violence. It didn't go down too well, as you can imagine

Well if by "universally" you mean "in every case, without exception, everyone" how can you agree with that?

Why is there always a man on these threads who is desperate to have his opinion heard. I just don't get it. Derailing the subject and having people answer him.

It's perfectly reasonable to be wary of men. In fact, it's something that women are taught to be from a young age. Girls hear things like

"keep your knees together when you sit"
"stop flashing your knickers when you're playing"
"don't wear that"
"don't get drunk"

These can not only be seen as potentially leading to victim blaming, but also seem to tacitly acknowledge that society as a whole believes that men are dangerous to women and that the danger they pose must be mitigated by women's behaviour.

If society as a whole understands that men as an amorphous group are a danger to women as an amorphous group, then it would appear to be a rational reaction for individual women to fear all men and to have as little to do with them as possible.

However, while understanding this truth, feminist also live in the real world, where NAMALT. We will all have relationships of differing kinds with men who are emphatically not a danger to us. This is why when discussing male behaviour, male violence and patriarchy there is no need to constantly state that not all men do this, because it's a given.

Violent men are assholes. Rapist men are assholes. Men who are so terrified of women that they have to constantly interject into women's spaces and discussions are assholes.

Hence the expression: Feminists don't hate men, we hate assholes.

I want to like your post Xenophile

then it would appear to be a rational reaction for individual women to fear all men and to have as little to do with them as possible

Then I must be completely irrational.

You appear to have had a quoting fail there Lass, the whole sentence was:

If society as a whole understands that men as an amorphous group are a danger to women as an amorphous group, then it would appear to be a rational reaction for individual women to fear all men and to have as little to do with them as possible.

So, and If...then statement which was clearly, I thought, linked to the previous paragraph. Sorry if it wasn't clear to you.

Although you may have made your comment merely to belittle, in which case I shall feel suitable belittled by you. Just let me know how small you wish me to feel.

Can't think of anything clever to add but want to follow this thread

Although you may have made your comment merely to belittle, in which case I shall feel suitable belittled by you. Just let me know how small you wish me to feel

I disagree with you. I disagree with the entire paragraph. Nothing to do with belittling you. If you want to feel belittled it's entirely up to you.

Well if by "universally" you mean "in every case, without exception, everyone" how can you agree with that?

I mean that across the world, it is men who are responsible for mass killings and genocides. Not women. It is universally a male behaviour.

Which leads me to question whether it is actually a reality to wipe out male violence or something fundamentally 'in' them.

And yes, I do not know of one instance where women have been responsible for genocide

Can we run with this further though; if it is innate that men are more violent than women (maybe more susceptible to use violence might be the better term) then if that is the truth then we have to reframe the solutions.

As you say, feminists have assumed that socialisation is the problem, but maybe we have over-estimated this, and this is why we do not have a peaceful future in sight.

Violence has been a necessity for survival in the past so it is clear it has served a purpose, but can this be socialised out? Has it ever been? Is there such a thing as a non-violent society?

If this is the truth then it is not that men won't stir themselves to change, it is that they can't, they will eventually revert to type. So this leaves us at a really difficult position..what is it that can solve it? Zero tolerance on all violence with heavy punishments? More women in positions of power? I'm not sure.

All I am wondering here is, if it is innate (there is evidence testosterone causes violence) then WTF do we do?

Statements about biology get challenged, because if men are just biologically violent, they can't help it, and nothing will ever change it, men will always seek dominance and use violence to try and achieve it. Men will perpetrate horror, will hurt and abuse those who are weaker, and we can't stop them, because it's innate.

That is not entirely true. We can stop them. With violence.

And that's why I am frequently very, very, surprised when any man makes the argument that he should be allowed to be violent "because biology".

Whether it be true or not, it certainly is not in his best interest to say it. Women could believe it and draw the logical conclusion.

What men ought to be aware of is that violence usually takes place between men, not between men and women (in spite of damage to women). So if a man says violence is OK, is he expecting to be the toughest guy around?