Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

[Doobigetta]

Apologies- I know lots of people are sick of hearing about the trans issue. But I received the following email from the ASN today-

Calling all creative minds
Six and a half years ago we were very fortunate to have someone design a logo for us. Our logo has served us well but ASN has grown and we feel it’s time for our brand to have a bit of a touch up. We are particularly interested in a logo that is more in line with the fact that we sometimes hear from trans people and others who do not consider themselves to be women. At ASN we’ve crowd sourced everything from our first logo to our director’s 2015 salary and we thought we’d do the same with our new logo. Interested? Email us and we'll send you the brief. You don’t even need to be an "official" - if our favourite image is a doodle we can get one of our amazing volunteer designers whip it into a graphic. We can’t wait to see what you come up with!

I've responded to say I'd be very unhappy about them badging abortion rights as anything other than a women's issue, and that I feel conflating it with questions of gender identity weakens and undermines the importance of it as a women's issue. Please, if you feel the same way, could you let ASN know?

I'm also struggling a bit with the idea that someone might end up needing to use an abortion service partly because it was 'upsetting' for them to take a contraceptive pill intended for women. More upsetting than a gynaecological procedure!?

Having someone's dick in their vagina should be very, very upsetting for transmen, so I really don't get how they could have an unwanted pregnancy other than by rape.
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Those "transmen" who have PiV and give birth to children because they want to, and still insist that they are male ... well. I can understand why a woman would want to redefine herself as male, to spare herself the hate and harrassment, but it doesn't work that way. It just makes misogynist violence invisible.

Agree with vestal. Assuming that any TM who is happy with consensual PIV sex won't be upset by accessing a service for women, so the only TM that might need to be considered are those that are pregnant as a result of rape. I don't know any stats, but I'm guessing that's less than one a year. Possibly considerably less as ASN's own comms have suggested "a few" TM have accessed the service - doesn't sound like lots.

So I would like to understand how ASN have decided that that particular incredibly small number of females are a higher priority than (for example) women who might struggle to access their services through lack of Internet access, literacy or English not being their first language. All of which I bet are a higher number than TM who are pregnant as a result of rape.

Laughed out loud at the idea you would be asked (or even not asked on principle) your gender if pregnant.

The world truly has gone mad.

You have a point there. I doubt there is a space on any of their forms with the option of M or F.

I don't think I would worry too much that this action weakens the UN's assessment that Ireland's policy is discriminatory. It remains discriminatory but against women and trans men. Trans men who have not undergone surgery are a specific class in their own right with physiological and health care issues not shared by any non trans men and the policy discriminates against them too.

The idea that they would dedicate time, energy and resources to this is utterly depressing. It shows how strong and insidious the trans propaganda machine is.

The time and money spent redesigning the logo bothers me. The time and money spent redesigning logos always bothers me , whether it's a charity or a commercial organisation whose services I pay for.

I barely noticed the logo and am unconvinced that a person with a functioning, impregnated uterus would be put off by it.

That's a good point lass. How much of my donation is paying for this? Or are they only looking for volunteer designers? In which case the 'boss' is still spending time on it and that costs money.

If they genuinely think the logo will put off a pregnant trans man they could just drop the logo. I don't think it adds anything.

NUPAS and BPAS have no logo other than the acronyms. Marie Stokes has a door with their name on it.

There you go, job done- no consultancy fee required.

Questing - we don't live in NI/ROI but have friends and family there. Just because something is happening in a different country doesn't mean you can't have a view. Is FGM OK because its mostly in far off places? I posted because I was upset that a charity which was taking a thoughtful, compassionate approach to trans people was being called ridiculous for that. Lack of compassion for trans people seems to be pretty much global and in one small way this was making things better for them. It's not my child because we're not there, but it is somebody's.
Lady Stark everybodys experiences of unwanted pregnancy are individual on the scale of shitness. For transboys though, pregnancy is something happening to their body which also makes it impossible to pass as what is for them their gender. I guess its like not only being pregnant but at the same time growing a beard, body hair, feeling your voice deepen - in short, appearing as a gender which is not your own. I'd say that's worse.
Pippa its not a question of 'worse' than PIV activity. Many women seeking abortion possibly wish they hadn't engaged at least one act of PIV. The female anatomical nerve endings and so on are still there - I don't think PIV is right off the cards especially for young trans people.
Just if it was always a choice between contraception and abortion there'd probably be fewer abortions all round.
Lurcio Still just because a lot of misogynistic people with other nutty views are also anti-abortion doesn't mean its entirely a woman's rights issue. It doesn't have to be a misogynistic thing. It is an issue for transboys too because they can get pregnant.

Thecatsmum You may laugh but it's not funny for my child when he is referred to as 'she' and 'her'. If he was in the situation of being pregnant that would be bad enough without people refusing to recognise his gender.
Hermoine I don't know about trans propoganda, if there's somewhere a conspiracy of entitled men pretending to be women to get better treatment or take the piss, maybe there is. But from where I am looking, discrimination against trans people is absolutely rife, in policies, public space, in attitudes, everything. It's an incredibly hard road, on a daily basis, and unlike being a woman you don't have half the population walking that road with you. That's why I stuck my head above the parapet on this thread.

very you lost me at abortion not entirely being a women's rights issue.

I can well understand why a young woman in today's society would not want to be a woman, but you can't identify your way out of biology. It's I credibly harmful to women to pretend that men can get pregnant too and it's somehow a gender neutral issue.

The ASN website states that trans men are welcome to use their services too. What more is needed? Why is that tiny group of females a priority over the other groups I asked about?

I find it very insulting that trans people and trans advocates seem to think that traumatic experiences are harder for trans people than non trans people. So a trans teen gets raped and needs a termination- that's worse than a non trans teen who gets raped and needs a termination because they also have gender shit involved? Fuck off.

Mephisto I said people's experiences are individual, you can't rank them in groups of 'hardness', how bad it is for you it depends on how you deal with things generally as an individual and the circumstances of the pregnancy which could be wildly varied. Having the 'gender shit' to deal with is something though is something extra that transboys in that situation have to deal with, on top of their individual reaction/circumstances.
Hermoine its not sex neutral but it is gender neutral in that it can and does affect some trans people. I'm not pretending that my son could get pregnant unless he is pretending he is my son and not my daughter, and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't put himself through the shit he gets just to do that. They shouldn't be a priority, but they should be included in people who can be affected by pregnancy.

-very I think we are arguing the same point - yes of course transmen can get pregnant because they are female. That's what the "trans" bit means.

The ASN's website already says they support trans men.

What more is necessary?

I will not say that abortion impacts men and women equally . I will not say men can get pregnant. Those are both untrue.

They shouldn't be a priority, but they should be included in people who can be affected by pregnancy.

In what way are they not included by ASN? The symbol recognises their sex which is female and the website states it helps transpeople. In what way is that not being included?

ASN will know themselves if they have pregnant trans men who have difficulty approaching them , so fair enough to consider the issue .

If they think it is an issue then I don't think it's for me as a "cis" (yes I know, you all hate the word but for the purposes of this argument I'm going to use it) women living on the mainland UK, who has never even had to deal with an unplanned pregnancy let alone access an abortion, to tell them they are wrong.

However, they are a tiny charity serving a small area. If this is an issue, then BPAS, NUPAS and Marie Stopes must have had to deal with it too. ANS could have looked at the websites of those much larger, longer established organisations and followed their lead. I really don't see the need for them to have dealt with it in the way they have.

As Hermione says , the website already refers to men. I assume when drafted originally it meant "men supporting their partners " But as it doesn't actually have the highlighted words it just means "men"

What Jackie said.

Well, and herm, and lass

Sorry meant to say "woman" not "women"

If they think it is an issue then I don't think it's for me as a "cis" (yes I know, you all hate the word but for the purposes of this argument I'm going to use it) woman living on the mainland UK, who has never even had to deal with an unplanned pregnancy let alone access an abortion, to tell them they are wrong.

My son doesn't consider himself female, though he does recognise he has a female body. I'm glad ASN are open to supporting transmen/boys, obviously not arguing with that. As I said, I was posting because people were saying it was ridiculous to change the logo to be less apparently female.

My son doesn't consider himself female, though he does recognise he has a female body

He doesnt have to consider himself female for it to be a fact.

J&H only if you think the anatomical sex of his body trumps what gender his brain thinks it is. Its not a choice he's made, it's what he's like. If you (presuming you're a woman) woke up tomorrow with a penis somehow would you then be male?

How would I wake up with a penis? That is a ridiculous question?

I am female as i was born with the female XX chromosomes as was your son.

Hmm, let's see. When we are talking about a biological issue such as abortion, does gender-feels take priority?

It feels inappropriate to have this discussion around abortion laws though, as it would with something like FGM. Sometimes, only biology matters

Very, the law in Ireland states it is illegal for a woman to have an abortion. Do you think they would allow your child an abortion, or do you think they will base their decision on biology?