Abortion Support Network- abortion not just a women's issue?

[Doobigetta]

Apologies- I know lots of people are sick of hearing about the trans issue. But I received the following email from the ASN today-

Calling all creative minds
Six and a half years ago we were very fortunate to have someone design a logo for us. Our logo has served us well but ASN has grown and we feel it’s time for our brand to have a bit of a touch up. We are particularly interested in a logo that is more in line with the fact that we sometimes hear from trans people and others who do not consider themselves to be women. At ASN we’ve crowd sourced everything from our first logo to our director’s 2015 salary and we thought we’d do the same with our new logo. Interested? Email us and we'll send you the brief. You don’t even need to be an "official" - if our favourite image is a doodle we can get one of our amazing volunteer designers whip it into a graphic. We can’t wait to see what you come up with!

I've responded to say I'd be very unhappy about them badging abortion rights as anything other than a women's issue, and that I feel conflating it with questions of gender identity weakens and undermines the importance of it as a women's issue. Please, if you feel the same way, could you let ASN know?

How he described it to me was something like as he became aware of himself in a body he knew it was not the one he expected it to become. He thought his body would at some point turn into a boys body on its own. If that makes sense. In that way it would be like waking up with a penis. What I mean is, if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male? (I appreciate it's not going to happen, but I do think it was something like that for him). Because he doesn't think his female body is enough to make him female.

I'd be very surprised if he was allowed an abortion. I'm not a lawyer, I don't know if anyone has tried.

*any transman/boy has tried, I'm sure women have.

if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male?

How can I answer that? 1) it wont ever happen and 2) its not something i have ever expected to happen or wish to happen. I am not a transperson and have never felt like my biological sex does not match the gender I identify with.

he doesnt think his female body is enough to make him female

Again, what he thinks doesnt change the facts. His body is female. Female bodies are the only ones who can access abortion services.

Very, yes, when it comes to pregnancy, your child's brain has no say - female anatomy completely trumps it - how can it be any other way - if you're pregnant, you are female, no matter what you want to think about it.

As I've said on other threads, I don't feel a gender. I am a woman, but I don't feel female, and waking up with a penis (magic existing aside) wouldn't be traumatic at all.

Oh, and, if I woke up with a fully functioning, sperm producing penis, then yes, that would make me male, as that's what male and female means - males produce small, mobile gametes, females produce the large ones. It means nothing more than that.

What I mean is, if you did somehow wake up with a penis do you think that would make you male?

Well, yes. Of course. If I woke up with a penis and testicles, I would then acknowledge that I am male.

I would be unhappy, because it is not something that usually happens to human beings, and I suppose my body changing that way overnight instead of over the course of a couple of years as it does in puberty, would be traumatic, but I would acknowledge reality.

And then go on to be the best feminist ally I can be.

As I've said on other threads, I don't feel a gender. I am a woman, but I don't feel female, and waking up with a penis (magic existing aside) wouldn't be traumatic at all

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

The exact wording in the Irish Act says:- “woman” means a female person of any age

Ireland also permits self-determination of gender. If a child says they are a boy and not female how can the legislation apply to them?

Well, yes. Of course. If I woke up with a penis and testicles, I would then acknowledge that I am male

At the risk of dragging the thread into the realms of magical realism I very much doubt I would. I expect that I would want them removed, as I did with the ganglion which appeared on my wrist once, but a damn sight quicker.

If you feel like you have the wrong body and you should have a penis, not a vagina, why are you having PIV sex?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

So if adhereing to the Irish law then a transman or transboy could legally have a termination in Ireland?

In theory, Jackie.

So if adhereing to the Irish law then a transman or transboy could legally have a termination in Ireland?

Who knows ? The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 defines "woman" as I quoted.

The Irish Gender Recognition Act (2015) says
“Any adult or emancipated minor who demonstrates by an adequate combination of facts that the reference to sex in civil status does not match the one in which they occur and in which they are known can obtain the change

The principles of these facts, can be proven by any means, such as:

That one has publicly stated to belong to the requested sex;
^That one is known as the requested sex amongst family, friends or professional;
That one has obtained a change of name to match the requested sex; ”^

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

Which is why I said magic aside - I'm assuming in this theoretical world where I wake up with a penis this is a standard possibility, not a sudden proof of the existence of magic in this one (because yes, if it happened in this universe, it would be traumatic - not the penis itself, but the fact that it's even possible)

Really? Not traumatic at all ? I'd be screaming the house down if I woke up with a penis attached to my body.

Which is why I said magic aside - I'm assuming in this theoretical world where I wake up with a penis this is a standard possibility, not a sudden proof of the existence of magic in this one (because yes, if it happened in this universe, it would be traumatic - not the penis itself, but the fact that it's even possible)

Of course a person's physical body determines their sex - gender is a notion inside the mind, not based in empirically verifiable fact. Your child is entirely female, and has a female brain (because it's part of their female body)
They may wish they were male but they are 100%, completely female.

If I woke up with a male body id be confused and distressed. I'd still be me, but with a male body. However this is a false comparison because trans people do not wake up in an opposite sex body one day - they are born one sex and they die the same sex.

Actually to be pedantic the Irish Act is called

"The Irish Gender Recognition Act (2015) but permits self-determination of sex

This would mean they could not refuse to allow a pregnant trans man to have an abortion using the arguements which radical feminists use - namely only the female sex can get pregnant as the 2015 Act refers to a requested sex

The trans man has under Irish law changed sex, under the 2015 Act so how can he be a female person of any age under the other Act? The 2013 Act no more applies to him than it does to my son.

So technically, ASN wouldn't need to support any transboys to procure abortion - they could get one legally in any old hospital.

Disclaimers re legal interpretation

1. I'm not qualified in Irish law
2. I have not read either statute in full
3. It won't be the first time parliamentary draftspeople have produced crap and contradictory legislation which has to be amended.

I suspect this will be spotted and the 2013 Act amended to refer to something like a "pregnant person, or a person who believes themselves to be pregnant, of any age"

well isnt that just fucking great.

I doubt Irish hospitals will be equipped to offer elective abortions to men if they aren't legally allowed for the majority of the population. The doctors will of course have the skills and equipment but the admin processes won't be in place.

"men" I should say. They are clearly women even though I believe in respecting patients gender identities while actually treating them.

The doctors will of course have the skills and equipment but the admin processes won't be in place.

Will they? I mean, if it is illegal, are they even taught how to do it? I suppose some could be immigrants from the UK, but even then ... why would they have the equipment?

Though I suppose a transboy could use abortion pills if it was early enough, and not be charged with any crime.

I hope this will happen. In fact, I hope that every single Irish woman who needs an abortion will promptly identify out of womanhood and get abortion pills.

Perhaps that would make them see how ridiculous this shit is.

... of course the more likely outcome is that they'd just change the laws to make abortions illegal for "men", too.

Aren't abortions legal in cases of birth defects/sever genetic abnormalities etc? I'm pretty sure they are allowed to carry them out in some circumstances and they can do emergency abortions to save lives if need be (although didn't do so in time in the case of that poor poor Indian (I think she was Indian) woman.

Will they? I mean, if it is illegal, are they even taught how to do it?

Abortions are occasionally carried out. Presumably a surgeon who knows how to do a d&c or an endometrial ablation would be capable of doing a surgical abortion?