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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

230 replies

Puffinity · 03/06/2016 21:42

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

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DioneTheDiabolist · 04/06/2016 00:08

I made no judgement in my post. I did not say that liberal feminists were lovely, nor did I say radical feminists were transphobic. The Radfem view of gender (societal construct) is incompatible with the transgender view (male/female brain in the wrong sex body).

SpookyRachel · 04/06/2016 00:24

You did say that radical feminists are less sympathetic and inclusive, Dione, and that was what I was responding to. You are right that there is an ideological incompatibility, but - speaking entirely for myself - that doesn't necessarily imply less sympathy. I suspect I have more friends and acquaintances who are trans or non binary or genderqueer than most MNetters, and my warmth towards them is not blocked by the gender analysis of some trans activists. (Yes, I realise that sounded very 'some of my best friends are gay'.) Many trans people - particularly trans men - and non gender binary people came out of the rad fem lesbian scene, after all. I didn't start rejecting my friends because they took this journey.

poochiepants · 04/06/2016 00:41

I think that this is where the very black and white "man or woman" thing falls down - yes, there are biological differences but it is society (over 1000s of years) that has created these 'labels' and in a utopian world everyone should have the freedom to express themselves as they wish. But that's not how the world is, and that's when the confusion sets in - you HAVE to be one or the other, there are no halfway houses......maybe it'll change one day, but not in our lifetime.....

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/06/2016 00:52

Spooky I said "Radical feminism, not so much." Perhaps I should have referred to liberal feminism instead of feminists. As for queer feminists, well you really can't be one without being inclusive to trans and non binary people.

My reply was to theOP, explaining that there isn't a feminism transgender clash, there is a radfem transgender clash.

singingsixpence82 · 04/06/2016 01:02

I th

singingsixpence82 · 04/06/2016 01:05

Very many children are experiencing gender dysphoria because of a complex range of issues happening in our society and the way adults are interacting with them.

Yes, I agree, it's the messages we're giving to kids about them not being able to do certain things because of their sex that is part of the problem; how we're interacting with children. And feeding them the notion that your brain is somehow supposed to match your genitals or your assigned sex at birth depending on your point of view.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/06/2016 01:44

I don't agree. 21st century childhood in affluent, educated, western countries is the most amazing time historically, geographically and legally for girls and women. I am grateful that I have been born in this time and place.

Numberoneisgone · 04/06/2016 02:10

don't agree. 21st century childhood in affluent, educated, western countries is the most amazing time historically, geographically and legally for girls and women. I am grateful that I have been born in this time and place

Absolutely no question however it is still very far from an equal society particularly when children are born. Then society has massive expectations for worn which have not changed dramatically from the last 50 odd years.

venusinscorpio · 04/06/2016 05:03

Dione, why am I a radical feminist just for this one opinion? There is nothing wrong with being a radical feminist, but I resist this tendency to put labels on people and trying to make out this is an extreme view, and marginalise it, when the truth is that the grounding for it may be based on a deeper interest in gender politics but the view is probably nearer to what the majority of women feel when they are made aware of the reality of the issues involved. The "liberal" feminist view is not the default.

Grimarse · 04/06/2016 07:23

I have sympathies with both sides in this debate. I do believe that women require women-only spaces - toilets, changing rooms etc, and that for another group to demand to share these spaces shows a lack of empathy. We have to find another way to solve this issue that doesn't involve women giving up their space.

One aspect that I don't understand and haven't seen addressed before is this; why are men choosing to give up their privilege? FWR is full of threads about women's oppression, and about how shitty life can be, compared to the gilded existence that men experience daily. Why would anyone give that up to become a member of the oppressed class? Are they just oblivious to it?

If this is taking the thread off track, then I will take the question elsewhere.

noeffingidea · 04/06/2016 07:55

They're not really giving up male privelege, Grimarse. See Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. Caitlyn is free to be Bruce when it suits, eg at the golf club.
Many MTT's continue to behave exactly as privileged men do, demanding access to women's spaces and events, demanding discussion is centred around them, etc.

BabyGanoush · 04/06/2016 07:57

Gilded existencr?

Oppressed class?

Are you serious? Who talks like that?

NickiFury · 04/06/2016 07:59

Why would anyone give that up to become a member of the oppressed class?

I believe they cannot begin to accept or even comprehend that the oppression exists from their default position of privileged male.

PalmerViolet · 04/06/2016 08:06

The clash boils down to:

Sex is what society uses to oppress women.

Gender roles are the weapons that society uses in order to do that,

Feminism is or at least should be concerned with removing rigid gender roles. So that people can be people and not split into breeder and leader categories.

Trans* politics seeks to reaffirm and solidify gender roles, to the detriment of everyone, men and women.

It's also incredibly homophobic.

I don't know anyone who hates trans folks, no matter how much posters would like to pretend RFs do. I know plenty of people, feminists, trans and others who deplore the way the loudest section of trans* politics goes about things.

Grimarse · 04/06/2016 08:17

BabyGanoush, the post directly below yours acknowledges oppression of women. Do a search on any of the threads on the FWR board. It is a commonly acknowledged phenomenon on here, at least.

SpookyRachel · 04/06/2016 08:20

Dione, my point is that the language you used implied that a political critique = no being sympathetic. This is not about rejecting people. I very much doubt that radical feminists as a group are any more transphobic than liberal feminists or indeed any other group in society.

FirstShinyRobe · 04/06/2016 08:20

Great post, PalmerViolet.

I think Dione is right, it is about Radical Feminism if one is defining it as looking at the root of oppression, as explained by PalmerViolet. I have tried to understand how solidifying gender helps anyone, let alone the politics of non-radical feminists, but have drawn a blank.

MyCrispBag · 04/06/2016 08:27

genderapostates.com/

www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-8244-The-trans-conundrum-what-is-the-real-meaning-of-gender#.V1KQV9mLRQI

These are some links from gender critical transwomen.

The video is from a transwoman who (as far as I can tell) is trans in the old fashioned sense of the word, that is surgery and hormones. She explains why despite her life, appearance and surgery she still isn't a woman.

PalmerViolet · 04/06/2016 08:36

Are you serious? Who talks like that?

Gilded existence?

No idea.

Oppressed class?

People discussing class analysis.

HermioneWeasley · 04/06/2016 09:02

dione I am sure that all of us are immensely grateful to be living in this part of the world at this time. Just because it's less shit than it has been or is elsewhere, doesn't mean we have achieved equality.

Also the fact that billions of women and girls around the world suffer horribly because of the single fact of their biology makes me even more determined not to redefine "woman" as a feeling, which may be the most misogynist concept I've heard.

HermioneWeasley · 04/06/2016 09:08

And dione by your logic, there's never been a better time or place to be trans, so why don't they just STFU?

HermioneWeasley · 04/06/2016 09:17

Oh, and I forgot the cotton ceiling. Because the majority of TW still have dicks, and many are attracted to women, lesbians are being called transphobic for refusing to sleep with them.

The term "cotton ceiling" was coined to refer to sexual access to lesbians bodies as the last barrier to equality for TW - the cotton being underwear that needs to be broken through.

Rapey enough for you?

BertieBotts · 04/06/2016 09:53

The short version (which is not very short, sorry!) is this:

First you need to understand that sex and gender are not the same thing, despite both being referred to as male and female. Sex is biology and gender, well, gender is a couple of things based on who you talk to.

When you talk to trans activitists or the non-binary community you will be told that gender is self expression, gender is your "self" effectively. It's whether you feel/know you are male or female (or something in between). The majority of people have a gender which matches their sex at birth. This group refer to those people as being "cisgender". But some people's gender does not match their sex, these people would be transgender. Transgender people may or may not want to use hormones and surgery to change their sex, but usually they wish to legally be recognised as male/female based on their gender rather than their birth sex. Then there is another group of people who feel that gender being restricted to "male" and "female" is restrictive and unnecessary. They argue that gender is not a binary, it is a spectrum. People can be a mixture of male and female, they can change depending on the day, they can have a completely different gender, or they can have no gender at all. But overall, gender (whether binary or nonbinary) is considered the important one over sex because it is self defined and hence more true to a person than their sex which they cannot choose (although this is where I get a bit confused because surely you also can't choose your gender, either.) This group celebrate gender as they feel it is an important part of a person's identity and feel that smashing the gender binary will lead to more acceptance of gender nonconforming behaviours.

Talking to radical feminists will get you a different perspective. Gender is not self expression. Gender is a set of restrictions and expectations placed upon a person based upon their biological sex. Hence, gender is external, not internal, considered harmful and to be abolished, not celebrated. Radical feminists believe there should be no limits placed upon a person because of their sex except for biological limits, e.g. only biological females can carry and bear children, only biological males can produce sperm.

The clash comes partly because one group wishes to abolish gender while the other wishes to increase its importance over biological sex. But, strangely, both groups are supportive of the idea that your sex or gender should not influence what opportunities you have, what interests are available to you, or basically anything about your personality or life except when it comes to medical issues. It's just they disagree on the way to achieve such a utopian state. Trans activists believe that expanding the definition of genders and celebrating non-standard gender configurations will open people's minds and blow away old stereotypes and eventually we'll get to a point where people are accepting of different genders and individuality. Radical feminists believe that complicating and celebrating the idea of gender is counterproductive, that talking about gender as though it is a concrete thing is reinforcing harmful stereotypes and ideas and that instead we should be talking about people, not gender.

Then another problem which radical feminists have is that because transgender activists wish people to be able to use the labels of male/female, boy/girl, man/woman (etc) in relation to people's gender rather than their sex, this is confusing as in radical feminists' beliefs, gender does not matter, only sex does (and sex matters far less often than we use it). Feminists find themselves barred from discussing issues such as women's health involving ovaries and wombs, because the word "women" is expected to include transwomen (who do not have ovaries and wombs), and excludes transmen (who often do) and non-binary people who are biologically female. It makes it very difficult to talk about issues which affect biological women when suddenly the word woman does not mean the same as it used to do. That might not be a problem, if equality was already here, but it is not.

The secondary issue with this is that anybody who gender identifies as female is allowed entry into woman-only space. This throws up questions about the reasons we need women-only space to begin with. The issue feminists have is that woman-only space is created to protect biological women from the violence and dominance of biological men. It is nothing to do with identity and everything to do with safety. By the way, I don't think many people have a serious problem with toilets. I think most people understand that trans people just want to use the toilet like everybody and are not going into toilets with the aim to rape or assault women, it's more that toilets represent a gateway for universal entry into places which should be women only, such as women's prisons, sexual assault and abuse centres, women's violence shelters, and so on.

Hopefully that is helpful. I did skim read the thread so have probably repeated some points but I didn't see a summary in the same format.

SpookyRachel · 04/06/2016 11:02

Thats a really helpful summary, BerieBotts. I think it demonstrates that it is perfectly possible to be on either side in good faith. Being in the rad fem side does not in itseld make you transphobuc. And being on the trans side does not make you a misogynist hellbent on colonising womens experience and wimens soace.

almondpudding · 04/06/2016 11:20

'I don't agree. 21st century childhood in affluent, educated, western countries is the most amazing time historically, geographically and legally for girls and women. I am grateful that I have been born in this time and place.'

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with, Dione, but this raises an important point.

There are amazing things about being a girl now and I too am grateful to be born in the twentieth century. I am also aware of the following issues that occur with far greater prevalence in affluent, Westernised societies...

  1. Eating disorders, including anorexia which has the highest mortality rate of any mental health problem.
  2. Body dysmorphia.
  3. Deliberate self harm by both cutting and ingestion.
  4. Social anxiety.
  5. Desire for cosmetic surgery.
  6. Increase in gender expression is inversely correlated with sex roles (meta analysis of 55 countries. The more similar men and women's roles, most common in affluent countries, the more they started to behave in masculine and feminine ways).
  7. Homophobia taking on covert forms.
  8. Medicalisation of many social issues.
  9. Focus on individual identity and consumerism through body modification.

That is the Western context trans issues happen in.

It is better in Western countries and in the present than in many other situations. Yet many people (mainly men) make successful suicide attempts and many people (mainly women) harm themselves to death, with the focus on the body.

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