Can someone explain the feminism - transgender clash...

[Puffinity]

...in a calm, non-ranty and non-sweary manner? Until very recently, my line of thinking was 'There are some men who feel like women (and vice versa). Fortunately, we are now open-minded enough as a society to accept this, and these people can have a sex change. Their bodies will then resemble their identity more closely and they will be happier for it.' Because of this, I was quite shocked at how anti-trans some feminists are. I am inclined to think there is more to it, and it is not as straightforward a question as it may seem. Can someone explain the issue in a bit more detail to me? I obviously understand the annoyance over banning the use of the word 'clitoris' for being offensive to transwomen (MtF) and could understand why some biological women (not sure what the correct lingo is) have problems allowing transwomen (MtF) who still have a penis into women-only (safe) spaces. But how many transwomen get upset over the use of words like clitoris and uterus? Surely most would just be relieved to have addressed their gender dysphoria and would want to get on with life? And how many transwomen (MtF) decide to keep their penis? Wouldn't it be wrong to exclude transwomen (MtF) from women-only activities? Shouldn't biological women who consider themselves feminists have some sympathy for other groups that are not treated equally in society? I am not trying to create a really heated debate, these are genuine questions I have. Having them answered will help me have a more informed opinion on the matter, which does seem to crop up more and more. Your views would be much appreciated!

The other big one in that list is pornification and hypersexualisation of pretty much everything Almond, which is both cause and effect of a lot of the things you already mentioned.

Grim There is thread after thread on here where male entitlement, men as the oppressor class is discussed. How society sees boys as better than girls and how this kicks in at early childhood. Comments that girls are told to be good and quiet and be decorative but boys are encouraged to be boisterous and active.

One of the frequent comments about mtf trans activists is they carry forward their sense of male entitlement and expect their voices to be prioritised.

I agree your question is a fair point. Possibly however no one has actually said "gilded cage" so that is where you fell down.

I think there are some people who suffer from true dysphoria (sense of wrongness) about the sex of their body.

I've also seen MtT who get erotic pleasure from being thought of as women.
Increasingly I see MtT people who have general issues with 'identity' in the context of personality disorder or other strong reasons why they dont feel they fit in. The idea that this might be because they are actually the opposite gender and being treated incorrectly by society feels like a good explanation of their problems. For others the idea trans are 'vulnerable, fragile, suicidal, oppressed, special, different, misunderstood' is the thing they identify strongly with. Its a potent mix for people who feel that way for whatever reasons and so they relate or identify with that feeling. Many of these are very vulnerable individuals and side stepping the underlying problems won't help them. Equally I dont think the majority are particularly aware of the political ramifications just as most women arent. They are as the phrase goes, just trying to live their lives. Fairly difficult ones at that.

The effects on women rights are real and some of the vocal trans rights groups do indeed seem to be misogynist and homophobic at their core. Unfortunately they are having influence to the detriment of women and many vulnerable transpeople.

On the question of identity. Its interesting that there are increasing numbers of people who are saying it is acceptable to identify with any number of other groups eg those who think they should have been disabled, another race or even species. I think there are similar issues here and crossover. There's a research survey going round the forensic division of the royal college of psychiatrists at the moment which I was shown (Im not a forensic psychiatrist). It asked about psychiatrists experience with transgender patients, (including questions on whether safeguarding issues had arisen and autogynephilia) but also how many of their patients also had other identity issues such as identifying as furrys or bronys. (Identifying as animals or adult my little pony fans).

Women's oppression is rooted in biology. Certain trans activists do not acknowledge this. Many trans people do.

A bit anecdotal but representative of much....

Last year I joined a society for females in my profession. The ambition was to have a secret space (i.e. men wouldnt know that it existed) so that we could share industry tips, pitch for work etc. without the 'boys club' coming in to run things their way.

It worked beautifully for about two weeks and then a lot of trans people tried to join. Often, in our FB group we'd open a post with. 'Hey ladies!' or suchlike. Our trans members starting objecting to this sort of language saying they didnt identify as women so it offended them. Some of our more patient members drew up a painstaking charter of what we could and couldnt say. I was furious because the whole reason for our club existing was to make us women visible and because of the trans community in our midst we were once again made invisible.

Lots of stories like this but this is just one that demonstrates to me how some trans people are not the natural friend to a woman.

betty if women told TW behaving like that to fuck off, the whole thing woukdnt have snowballed as it has.

If you'd said, sorry this group is for women and not included them. Or if you'd told them you don't care if they're offended by "hey ladies" what could they have done?

Made a massive fuss outside of the group about the existence of the group. This would have been backed up by various men who would be annoyed that the group existed at all. Various women in the group would be singled out and have their career prospects undermined, or possibly lose their jobs.

That's probably what would have happened.

Can I ask where you live BettyDraper? Roughly obviously, not looking for your house number! And how many trans people joined? I'm guessing they were contacted by group members directly and invited?

Could you try to set up another group for "cis-women"? I know many people don't like the term but at least it means you're not facing language policing by people who believe they are women enough to join the group but then don't identify with the word "ladies". I presume it was transmen who objected?

Our trans members starting objecting to this sort of language saying they didnt identify as women so it offended them

This is confusing. Were your trans members biologically female? (transmen)? Or were they just men, who joined a group supposed to be for women, under the guise of being trans, while not even identifying as female?

While I would grant transmen access to some women's groups, I would expect them to acknowledge that they are only in this group because they ARE women.
If they can't cope with being treated as women even in the context of affirmative action, then they should try to get into the boys' clubs.

Presumably they were non binary trans.

Why is where posters live relevant Sixpence?

You ask for personal info and contacts on these threads a few times.

Male bathroom, female bathroom, unisex bathroom.....problem solved

No to pandering to twats by using the loaded word "cis".

almond - I'm just wondering if BettyDraper lives in a very different country or culture or a part of the country where there might be more trans people than the rest of the UK (isn't Brighton supposed to have a really high gay population?). I've yet to come across many trans people in real life so when others have experiences like Betty's I wonder if their experiences are unusual or if mine are.

I didn't think I'd asked for any other personal information?! I stupidly gave out my name to someone who may not be a feminist or feminist ally but I haven't asked for anyone elses' details. Although I have expressed an interest in doing something to voice my concerns and am therefore interested if there are facebook groups.

I agree that the word is unpopular for good reason venus. But here I thought it might be the lesser of two evils. Otherwise there is no group or no group that can actually function properly.

Oh god yes

I am NOT a cis

I am a woman

The latter vestal they were biologically male but identified as trans but not as women. It created a big divide (and a MAHOOSIVE argument that went on for weeks) between those of us, like me that felt that as our group name explicitly contained the words 'for women', that identifying as a woman should be essential for membership. And of course those who felt we were bigots for feeling that way. I'm not anti-trans but if a club is exclusively for women then it should be for people who identify as women, to my mind.

Do you actually think that if someone set up a group for "cis-women only" there wouldn't be any criticism of that? Women are not being allowed to have their own spaces. And pandering to this shit does not make the situation any better. We are not "cis women", we are women.

Speechless BettyDraper1. So some people want the right into women's groups and spaces even when they acknowledge that they aren't women and don't even feel like they are?! Were there any trans people that took your side?

hermoine i told them respectfully to eff off (!) and got called all sorts by the few very vocal biological females that supported them. Personally, i felt torn between not wanting to seem like a bigot but also livid at the same time that our club had imploded because of people who shouldnt of even been in it.

They sound like they were only there to deliberately shit stir, Betty.

Vestal - "no to pandering" - yes, yes, yes to this. I am increasingly coming to the conclusion (see thread on celebrating vulvas at Ladyfest) that this is a case of "give an inch and they'll take a mile." So the only response to this sort of thing ("wah, vulva cupcakes are so transexclusionary") has got to be either a straight "well, that's your problem, not mine, matey" or possibly (if one is feeling sufficiently PA) the classic "non apology apology" of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but we think it's a valuable exercise/activity/whatever, so we're going to carry right on with it."

If trans people can have their own groups then surely cis people can argue that they can too? I would be curious to see what reaction it got although I don't think the outcome you suggest is particularly unlikely.

I am coming to believe the same thing Lurcio but am clinging on to hope that there might be some way to find middle ground on certain issues. What makes me so sad is that there are a core of trans people who genuinely have a distressing condition and attempts to recognise and facilitate this are being abused to such an extent.

Im in the uk *sixpence' but the group was international and included a lot of americans particularly from LA and NY.

They did go to the press almond and we disbanded pretty quickly because of it. Our real names etc were very visible on our FB page and nobody wants the hassle. It was a massive shame.

I struggle with the growing "normalisation" of transsexuality.
In society we are experiencing a narrowing of gender norms. From my childhood (70s) and young adulthood (90s) to now women are expected to be more sexualised particularly in dress and personal grooming.
As a feminist i feel that I am shouting as loud as I can that I can be "professional" at work without heels and makeup and that not shaving your pubes is not equal to being dirty and unwashed.
Then along comes this school of thought that says if a young person doesn't want to fit in this tiny box that is labelled "woman" then instead of fighting to expand the box, they just choose a different box. One called trans or non-binary or gender fluid or whatever.
That might be ok for them, but in return my box, the "woman" box gets smaller and smaller and the definition of a "proper woman" only covers women performing extremely conforming and increasingly onerous femininity.