Danielle Muscato

[TheEmperorIsNaked]

How is Danielle a woman?

Just how?

No, I didn't Lass. Do read those posts again. Or see below:

JAPAB said: "When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman."

We all know that he believes 'woman' is someone who 'feels like a woman'. And his definition for 'feeling like a woman' (above) is feeling that everything is normal and as it should be when treated by other people as generally considered appropriate for your gender.

I don't feel that everything is 'as it should be' when other people treat me as of my gender, with all the underlying expectations and prejudices that entails. And that means, according to JAPAB, that I don't feel like a woman.

Since we all know that in JAPAB's world 'feeling like a woman' = 'being a woman', that means I am not a woman.

In his mind.

I get what Buffy is saying. I grew up with "motherhood" being on a pedestal and I think it still is but the reality of being a SAHM is being sneered at. Women's bodies are glamourised and fetishised in the media but at the same time people sneer at women for being vain and shallow and taking too long in the bathroom.

So I'm sure there are lots of individual women who have never felt inferior in our society but women who fit the role of womanhood that is idealised in the media are made to feel inferior. It's like double think.

I had a long reply typed out to Buffy and Penguin but Virgin East Coast WiFi has buggered it up and it was probably off topic of this thread. Stuff about self worth, self belief, promotion thereof.

Thanks Buffy
Lass that's annoying! I'd be interested if you can be bothered to type it out again.

Pronouns are a social construct too though. The only reason she feels right to me is because I've heard it all my life because I'm female. There is no inherent woman essence to the word 'she'.

CoteDAzur We all know that he believes 'woman' is someone who 'feels like a woman'. And his definition for 'feeling like a woman' (above) is feeling that everything is normal and as it should be when treated by other people as generally considered appropriate for your gender.

When I talk of it feeling normal when others treat you like a man/woman I simply meant that other people see you as/consider you as/accept you as a man/woman.

If a particular individual thinks men ought to do X, Y or Z while I myself do not want to do this, and he starts insulting me, then I might not see that part of things as right and proper. But the fact that he considered me as a man in the first place, would be, and is what I was thinking of as feeling all normal and right and proper to me, and sets of no alarm bells in me, etc etc.

I can also write it in capital letters if it will help you get it. We have been through this many times and you just don't get it.

If everyone agreed with you that the biological definitions were all it was, then we wouldn't be here as such discussions would be non-existent.

Japan what do you actually mean by 'treat you like a woman'?

It feels normal to me when people assume I'm a woman because I am one. That's it.

I'm desperately trying to find examples in my own life when being treated like a woman has been a particularly positive or even useful experience.

I suppose being offered a seat when pregnant was helpful. I also think (anecdotely) it's easier for women to be accepted back in the work place after a career break or be accepted in an employment role for which they are over-qualified.

Unfortunately my second example, does illustrate how society's expectations about women's careers differs from their male counterparts.

I do love reading your posts Buffy. Always so clear and the very opposite of waffle. I have a much better chance of getting my head around some of the complexities of these kind of things reading what you write.

Stuff about self worth, self belief, promotion thereof

But that's still only operating at the level of the individual. Buffy & others are talking about structures, and structural oppression, it seems to me.

I'm hugely privileged in terms of class, wealth, health, education & so on. but I've still been 'Othered" or interpellated. Reminded in encounters (which have had the force of symbolic violence) that I am 'just' a woman. And I still struggle with socialisation, so deep it feels as if it's 'me' - my character - socialisation that causes me to take on the role of carer & do wifework at work (not a wife, so only myself to please at home); to worry if a man seems to be unhappy; to feel I talk too much, and so on & on, and endlessly on.

JAPAB would have to explain what he meant as "Treat as a woman ".

This could mean nothing more in the context of this thread than using feminine gender pronouns should the need arise to refer to an individual person. That is what I took it to mean. Buffy has posted example of what she takes this to mean and has posted specific examples of how this relates to her life experiences.

Other than comments on appearance these are not experiences I share nor are those which rollinginthedeep lists (and even in relation to appearance comments relate to clothes rather than physical attributes)

rolling you have made an assumption about what I had been about to post.

What I had intended to say was the effect of being raised in a family and school environment where nobody ever told me I should expect to be treated as worth less because I was a girl. I went to a rural comprehensive school in the 70s which singled out and valued its top 5% of pupils, boys and girls. This was in the days when only a tiny proportion of people went to university- we were targeted from first year of secondary as being high achievers who would. We got the best and most experienced staff teaching us - our sex had nothing to do with it. That is what I meant about self belief and self worth. That is what I got from my family and school. I suppose the school was being unfair to the other 90% but that's a different issue.

I wonder if I had been told "you are a girl,ife will be crap" how I would have fared.

I didn't enjoy it very much, in fact it made me pretty unhappy being at home, but oh the guilt of even thinking that I might do things differently

Why guilt? I don't understand that. I went back to work full time when my son was 3 months old. We employed a nanny. I never felt guilty about it. I don't think I'm better or stronger than you, other than perhaps my school sent me out on the world with a sense of entitlement which never wore off.

I'm sorry you personally had those experiences but why feel guilty? Was that internally or externally imposed- although please ignore if that is too personal to answer. It seems a contradiction from what comes across in other posts by you. I would have assumed that rationally and objectively you know you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Apart from a very brief stint in local government I've only ever worked in the private sector. I don't see just a few women who have had good luck to avoid those obstacles- I see many successful woman.

Thank you for your considered reply.

We have strayed quite a bit from the topic.

In the mail...which i wont link to

There is a story about a trans man refused entry to a male changing room as he still has breats

I dont do twitter but i am assuming that it is full of angry trans activists threatening the men in the changing room....if someone could check and let me know that would be awesome

It's interesting that the men who used the changing rooms did actually complain.
I had wondered if they would generally not care because they're not going to feel threatened by a naked woman the way women are by a naked man. But as they are more likely to be listened to than women, this will help establish the principle that people do want single sex accommodations and make it easier for women to preserve penis-free zones.

Would not be so great if we ended up with a situation where transmen weren't allowed in men's changing rooms but transwomen were allowed in women's - which could easily happen.

I thought it was strange, i thought (probably because we keep getting told) women are the only ones that can be transphobic

I would be beyond angry if it turns into (as usual) one rule for one and one for the others

I might check out the comments

Oh here you go.

Transgender man who was born a woman is banned from the male changing room at his gym because he still has BREASTS | Daily Mail Online
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3576566/Transgender-man-born-woman-banned-male-changing-room-gym-BREASTS.html

You will not be upset by the comments.

I think that, in 20 years' time, 80% of MTT activists will have accepted that they are gay men and will no longer be identifying as women. It is sad that it is easier for them to pretend to be women than to come to terms with not fitting into a conventional view of masculinity.

Seeing them as gay men explains many of their attitudes to women. I have many gay friends but there is a definite subset of gay men who are hostile to women (especially lesbians) and another that wants women to conform to a hyper-feminine stereotype.

I don't think so, Shiny - it's true of some transwomen (especially in countries that are more accepting of sex changes than of homosexuality) but the many transwomen who identify as lesbian are definitely attracted to women. (And oddly, it is the latter group that seems to include the nastiest misogynists.)