Danielle Muscato

[TheEmperorIsNaked]

How is Danielle a woman?

Just how?

I don't know about anyone else but today, I identify as a Leicester FC supporter, I've never been to a game, have only visited Leicester itself a few times over 15 years ago but I feel like a supporter today. Anyone else?

Yes! I was reading all about them on the train down this morning. And I've never been to Leicester.

The day I identify as a football supporter is the day I do, erm, something unlikely.... Ah well. Anyway. Well done to Leicester FC!

"I don't feel the existence of trans women diminishes my identity or takes anything away from me."

Their existence doesn't change anything for you, I agree.

The proposed changes in law which mean, in effect, that there will be no such thing as female-only spaces/support groups/hospital rooms etc will change a lot for you and for other women. Maybe you won't notice it until you or someone you know well are gravely affected by these changes, but they will.

Even if you're alright Jack, these changes whereby "a woman is anyone who says they are" will negatively affect millions of women whose statistics will be skewed, who will have to share a prison cell with a male who likes to use his penis recreationally, who will have to get her smear test from a man in makeup because it will be bigotry and against the law to say "No, I don't want a male sticking his hands up my fanjo".

Even if you're alright Jack, you must care about other women at least a bare minimum in order to call yourself a feminist.

I didn't say "I'm all right Jack" but don't let that stop you putting words in my mouth.

Not in those words but you did say you're fine with it. I didn't see you acknowledge that it is a problem because it will be a problem for other people.

That is the attitude commonly referred to as "I'm alright Jack".

I may have misunderstood your POV as haven't had time to check all your posts but that is what the post I quoted sounded like.

As a gender-skeptical feminist, I don't know what I feel or think about transwomen like Danielle. I suppose they have as much right as anyone with the biology of a man to call themselves a woman.

Danielle helps in highlighting the oddness of the concept of a biological man feeling like a woman when they have not experienced living their life being treated as a woman or experienced the biology of that sex. It just isn't possible because there is no such thing as feeling like a woman.

Wearing make-up, heels, walking and speaking in a 'feminine' way, carrying a handbag does not make anyone 'a woman' in the same way as having a beard doesn't either.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics.

However we don't really need a man to do that for us.

the "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman isthe "feeling" which I do not have...then what am I? Have I lost my identity as a woman? Is that not a detriment to me, caused by redefining what a woman is

I was responding to this point. The existence of trans women does not as far as I am concerned mean I lose my identity as a woman. There may be implications for how women and trans women will share spaces but that is not the point I was responding to.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics

But think of the public vitriol and hatred - misogyny - spewed out at Mary Beard, or Andrea Dworkin or Germaine Greer or - well any woman who doesn't present publicly as outwardly overtly "feminine."

When women challenge being 'outwardly feminine' they are hated.

Rolling indeed they are,.

That is the whole problem with defining what is acceptable gender appearance. It is actually feck all to with anyone how you wear your hair, deal with body hair, clothes you wear; being a woman is solely about biological sex and your life's experiences.

Danielle is no more or less a transwomen than one who chooses to shave or wear make-up. It's all bollocks they are just biological males who are delusional about the idea that there is an internal special snowflake feeling that 'makes you feel like a woman'.

I just don't want to share a public toilet, a changing room, or a woman's shelter, a prison with someone who has a working penis. I don't care whether they have a beard or unshaven legs.

Actually I would go as far as saying I probably welcome the idea that Danielle challenges the concept of woman being defined as outwardly 'feminine' characteristics

But if it's not defined by outward characteristics (I'm with you on that) and it's not defined on biology, then what are we left with? Just this vague idea if 'feeling like a woman' which is a circular definition and doesn't include many, many people previously viewed as 'women'.

But surely it is defined by biology, and to a lesser extent your physical and specific 'social gender's' life experiences because of that biological definition.

Mind you I don't actually go round everyday thinking deeply about being a woman. I am many things, that are more important to me personally, than my female identity.

I think there's a whole lot of deep nearly unconscious misogyny and homophobia going on with this sort of transwoman. Not all transwomen - I have worked with a couple both pre- & post-op, and they were just ordinary people trying to get on with life, and dealing with this extraordinary dysphoria.

But this new 'gender fluid' - why can't men just wear dresses & make up if they want to? If they prefer sex with men why can't they jkust have sex with men?

Because I suppose masculinity is still such a repressive coercive socialisation that to be a man wearing the outward trappings of a woman is to lose all shreds of masculinity; ditto, homophobia - if you're in this hypermasculine mindset, then an attraction to men must mean you're "really" a woman. Because the thought of being a gay man is too horrific.

I think back to the first women to wear trousers (in Western Europe) in the 19thC. They were thought of as sexually deviant, psychologically abnormal. But to take on male clothes is to take on symbols/significations of masculine power, whereas to wear a dress is to "throw like a girl."

Yeuch - I'm 57 years old, and I don't think I'll ever get used to the dangerous knowledge of misogyny. As Prof. Greer said: Women can't afford to realise how much men hate them.

But if it's not defined by outward characteristics (I'm with you on that) and it's not defined on biology, then what are we left with? Just this vague idea if 'feeling like a woman' which is a circular definition and doesn't include many, many people previously viewed as 'women'.

I've seen definitions/discussions of terms like cissexual and cisgender which talk about people whose experience of life is of their mental and physical sex/identity being aligned, and feeling as if certain gender pronouns typically associated with their biological sex correctly capture them, and so on.

So maybe that is the answer you are looking for. When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman. Certain things feel "normal" and "right" to you.

Not the sort of thing most of us would notice in and of itself. You would either have to be trans or do some kind of Freaky Friday thought experiment where you get body swapped, to then have your feeling of being a man/woman made starker, since that feeling of normalcy and rightness will not be there if you are in the body of the "wrong" sex and/or are being described with the "wrong" pronouns and/or having everyone else acts as if you are the "wrong" one of the two and etc etc.

What I am suggesting in a nutshell is, feeling like a man = feeling as if a certain body and/or being referred to as he and/or being considered as a man, feels right and proper, and as if being in a a certain other body and/or being referred to as she and/or being considered as a woman, feels not right and not proper. With suitable adjustments made for feeling like a woman.

Well, it is not circular at least.

If I was transplanted now in a 'Freaky Friday thought experiment', of course that would feel wrong, because I've been a woman for 38 years! Not because my lady mind would suddenly 'get' what it means to be trans.

Being called 'she' and 'a woman' doesn't 'feel right and proper' because by a happy accident my mind was correctly aligned with my body at birth - it is because it correctly describes an adult of this sex.

"When you are in the "right" sexed body and/or being described with the "right" gender pronouns and/or other people are treating you as the "right" one of the two, then everything feels "normal" and as it should be. This is perhaps what it means to feel like a man/woman."

No it isn't. That is just mental masturbation.

We all know what the words 'man' and 'woman' mean, and they have nothing to do with feeling right about oneself when treated with gender prejudices.

In fact, your suggestion that a female is a woman only if she feels good about being told to bring coffee in a business meeting or having doors held for her is downright offensive.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace, If I was transplanted now in a 'Freaky Friday thought experiment', of course that would feel wrong, because I've been a woman for 38 years! Not because my lady mind would suddenly 'get' what it means to be trans.

The purpose it would not be to get what it means to be trans, but to contrast how you would feel in the two situations. So you would agree that it would feel wrong.

Being called 'she' and 'a woman' doesn't 'feel right and proper' because by a happy accident my mind was correctly aligned with my body at birth - it is because it correctly describes an adult of this sex.

Ultimately it doesn't matter why you feel what you feel here. Doesn't matter why you feel happy in a discussion of what feeling happy means in itself. So you feel it right and proper and correctly capturing of you to be referred to in these ways. OK well glad to hear it.

We all know what the words 'man' and 'woman' mean, and they have nothing to do with feeling right about oneself when treated with gender prejudices.

That is really not what I said. Plus I was responding to a particular query as I quoted. And it wasn't asking about what the biological definitions are. Yes we do all know what those are.

In fact, your suggestion that a female is a woman only if she feels good about being told to bring coffee in a business meeting or having doors held for her is downright offensive.

Where did I suggest that?

I disagree: I think it massively matters. If we say the reason it matters is because people can be fortuitously placed in the right body or unfortunately dumped in the wrong one, we're enabling all kinds of nonsense.

Of course it would feel wrong to be in a different body, just like if I woke up from my life as a travelling salesman as a cockroach - in a fictional situation that's never actually happened and couldn't actually happen. That wouldn't feel wrong because some people are 'really cockroaches' or vice versa, but because it would be a surreal and impossible situation.

I feel it is right and proper and correctly capturing of me to be referred to as a woman because that is what I am. As is anyone born with a female body, whatever their feelings about that are.

You suggested it in the post I quoted, JAPAB. Where you say being a woman means feeling that's it's all fine and normal when one is treated according to the gender expectations and prejudices accorded to those with vaginas.

That is not only wrong and frankly ludicrous, but is also very offensive. Because, would you believe, we are not actually OK with any of that.

"wasn't asking about what the biological definitions are. Yes we do all know what those are."

There Is No Definition Of The Words "Man" And "Woman" Other Than Biological.

There is no definition of the words "man" and "woman" other than biological.

I can also write it in capital letters if it will help you get it. We have been through this many times and you just don't get it.

Would underlining help?

I don't particularly want to agree with JAPAB but yes, I can see some logic in the situation that hearing the pronouns she or he as appropriate and not giving them a second thought might be a starting point.

I am not trans , neither is Cote and as far as I am aware neither is JAPAB, so none of us will ever have the sensation of finding she or he jarring.

Cote , again as much as I don't agree with JAPAB you have stated things he did not say.

What feminism has tried to do, IMHO, is sever the old link between biology and social role (which I think has been fairly successful in places like the UK), and between social role and inferiority (which I think has been less successful)

Can you clarify what you mean by social role and inferiority? I would say my lifetime experience in the UK is that if there were potential issues I might have faced from being female these were overwhelmed by the advantages of social class , education and race.

Sorry a bit off topic.