Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

So should we be letting all the other groups of males who have experienced suffering and/or prejudice, or who are vulnerable, use women's spaces too? Black men? Disabled men? Gay men? Working class men?

Maybe just have one set of facilities for 'straight, white, NT, able bodied, MC men' and one set of facilities for 'other'.

Tea would you also be happy to be naked in front of a man you don't know in a female changing room? Would you be happy for, say, your very young daughter to be in that position? Because that's the nub of this.

If I were faced with a naked Danielle Muscato or Davina Ayrton while I was getting changed, yes, I would feel vulnerable. And if that makes me a bigot or transphobic, so be it.

Soapbox, I agree that gender neutral spaces are probably the best answer (but expensive and take a bit of time to instal).

Yes, I have spoken to a trans woman honestly and deeply. Shane he is now back to being a man and wants to forget the whole sorry saga.

Trans women seem to expect a lot from women (due to their male privilege) but are offering women nothing in return. Infact what women get in return is a loss of safe spaces, and we get to be called non men into the bargain.

Have you ever heard a trans woman talk honestly and deeply about her life?

Yes. One of my closest friends, who fully transitioned many years ago.

She also thinks that men shouldn't be allowed in women's toilets. She says that she would feel vulnerable as a woman.

subset of men who have an XY-chromosome, or the subset of women who have an XX-chromosome

This is a bit like the subset of triangles that have three sides, or the subset of squares that have four sides.

Penny - speaking personally, I don't do being naked in changing rooms. What's wrong with cubicles? As I've just said, gender neutral cubicles are probably the best answer imo. And it goes without saying that I deginitely don't do getting naked in public loos! :)

If you were to request a female doctor to perform your smear test you would be absolutely fine with having a female doctor like this?

tearfuelled women (many moons ago) and disabled people have had to fight for facilities. People who need adult changing facilities still are. Most disadvantaged groups have had to do that, not piggy back on another disadvantaged group.

And I really don't think it would be that costly. Make the men's unisex and the women's single sex use eg unisex but with cubicles that go floor to ceiling. So in effect divider extensions.

No need for a full refurbishment.

Okay, I need to get on with my day now but just to re-iterate, I know that you have your strongly held views and that this is a highly emotive topic. I also know that I'm not going to change anyone's mind here!

But MN is not the Borg and it might be good for some people to know that there are MNers who don't have an issue with trans women in women's spaces. :)

but names and shames the thing that oppresses, I.e. Patriarchy

It is patriarchal privilege that allows men with penises to insist upon the right to access female-only groups/spaces by self-identifying as 'female', that allows a (male) poster on here to (without irony) refer to women with XX chromosomes as a 'sub-set' of the semantic category 'women', and which prompts the Green Party to suggest recategorising women as 'non-male'.

I have daughters. I'm not prepared to sit back and watch this charade progress to the point where they are required to accept a man with penis undressing next to them in a female-only changing room because it's illegal for them to challenge it and they'll be branded bigots if they do.

I have read lots about transwomen saying they are widening the boundaries of what it means to be a woman. Why the fuck can't they widen the boundaries of what it means to be a man?

tea, you say the problem is male privilege and the patriarchy. You're right there.

But then you say it's feminists who should be "naming and shaming" and fighting male violence. Please explain to me why it's a woman's job to stop male violence.

Hear hear parsnip

Why the fuck can't they widen the boundaries of what it means to be a man?

Where's the fun in that when its easier to misogynistically trample all over the 'weaker' sex? That, and the fact that they're not brave enough to challenge the patriarchy, given that it imbued them with an indelible belief that what they want, they must have (and women must be the ones to accommodate this, for us it not the role of dear, sweet women to give men what they want, when they want it?)

It is about dominance over women or the trans movement would be lobbying for a loo as people with disabilities did.

Talking of suicide levels does anyone have suicide rate for women from Asia? I am sure I read they have the highest rate. Asian women from certain cultures and religion would be unable to use a public loo if it was also used by trans women. I see little comment from this perspective.

teafuelledradical
But MN is not the Borg and it might be good for some people to know that there are MNers who don't have an issue with trans women in women's spaces.

The problem is, the opinions of yourself and other (bio)females without an issue or who support trans, will be quickly forgotten because it better serves the rhetoric to portray things as as it being only (bio)males who are trans or transsupporters. Then you can have lots of talk about patriarchs wanting to do down women due to their male privilege and wnathaveyou. So you will quickly find yourself lost to the selective blindness :)

RuthyToothy It is patriarchal privilege ... that allows a (male) poster on here to (without irony) refer to women with XX chromosomes as a 'sub-set' of the semantic category 'women'

I also refereed to how stat-collecters would need to make it plain if the data pertains to the subset of men with an XY-chromosome. But anyway, what is your defence or justification of the above statement?

Asian women from certain cultures and religion would be unable to use a public loo if it was also used by trans women. I see little comment from this perspective.

Well, if the very reasonable fear of women who don't want to be sexually assaulted doesn't count, then religious feelings and culture would of course matter even less.

Maybe you should ask why no one mentions the Muslim men who might not be comfortable with their wives sharing toilets and changing rooms and public baths with males.

After all, men are the only human beings whose boundaries matter.

(Talking of other countries, women in Africa and India are frequently raped by men when they walk behind some bushes because they don't have toilets. This is considered a big problem and it is universally acknowledged that having an indoors bathroom with toilets makes women much safer.
But of cooourse indoor toilets where males can freely walk in would be sooo much safer than some bushes where it might be hours until a potential rape victim walks by. Yeah.)

I also refereed to how stat-collecters would need to make it plain if the data pertains to the subset of men with an XY-chromosome. But anyway, what is your defence or justification of the above statement?

I'm confused What do you mean by "the subset of men with an XY chromosome"? All men have an XY chromosome

I have read lots about transwomen saying they are widening the boundaries of what it means to be a woman. Why the fuck can't they widen the boundaries of what it means to be a man?

You think the transmovement are not also interested in the concept of what it means to be a man changing?

I read that the hashtag #WeJustNeedtoPee has gone viral in the US.

Transwomen don't just want to pee, though do they? They don't want in their own toilets, they want to pee in women's toilets.

So the hashtag, which makes it look like women are trying to stop transwomen from using the toilet at all, has become another big fat lie accepted by everyone who doesn't want to be seen as a bigot.

You think the transmovement are not also interested in the concept of what it means to be a man changing?

I think you misunderstood the point this person was making. Instead of a man saying "I feel like a woman, therefore I am a woman", why can that man not say "I feel in a way that society determines as woman, however I am a man, and that is fine."

I guess what it comes down to is this: you either believe that trans women are women, or you don't. If you fundamentally believe that trans women are men dressed up, then much of what many of you are saying has some merit. If you believe that trans women are women (as I do), that frames things quite differently. No wonder we won't agree.

Rhonda, I don't necessarily believe that it us a / the woman's job to stop male violence. But I do believe that I personally should stop all violence where I encounter it, male or otherwise, to the best of my abilities. If hope that all people would say similar.

JAPA, if my views will disappear into oblivion, I'm honestly not that bothered. Why should I be?

The female toilet is for females, the changing rooms in a clothes store likewise. Many would feel unhappy threat ed if they were used by anyone else

Tea, can you respond to the people asking whether you'd be happy to see the likes of Danielle Muscato (beard & all) in women's toilets or changing rooms?