Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

I have neever seen a woman who looks so like a man that her presence in my toilet area has made me think "shit whats a man doing here

Beard and mustache may make me look twice but i had a friend with a beard so it still wouldn't be a done deal

My 13 y o dd and I were talking about this the other day. Dd was horrified that a trans woman would have to use a men's toilet. She kept asking questions to clarify - but what if you had a passport identifying you legally as female? What if you had undergone surgery? What if you were legally and biologically female? - etc etc. We didn't get into the complexities of top surgery and bottom surgery, hormones and gradual transitioning as, well, she is only 13.

I understand the fear that allowing trans women access to women's spaces may increase the already very real threat of attack.... However, knowing a few trans women and having really heard their stories, it seems very obvious to me that yes, women are vulnerable, but trans women are even more so - when you look at the stats for attacks, suicide, mental illness etc among the trans community it's undeniable that they are very, very vulnerable. It seems really cruel to me that the most vulnerable people in our society are deliberately put in situations which increase the risk to them (I'm thinking of trans women having to use male loos).

You might disagree with their gendered self-identity, but please bear this in mind: yes, women are disadvantaged and vulnerable - but trans women are far more disadvantaged and vulnerable.

You might feel that it's not your concern to protect them - but to me, feminism has taken a wrong turn if women can't check their comparative privilege. You might disagree fundamentally with a trans women's identity - but I'm much more inclined to the 'walk ten miles in the other person's sandals' approach, and in the meantime, I'm pragmatic enough to weigh up the risks and benefits involved, which leads me back to my basic point - yes, women are disadvantaged and vulnerable - but trans women are far more so.

Rufus, I know a few very 'butch' women whose gender / sex is not immediately obvious at first glance. They are around! :)

Teefuelled, have you read any of this thread? How is someone who's gone through male puberty "more vulnerable" than me, 5"1 in a confined space with strange men? Why should all women be put at risk to placate a tiny minority of trans women, most of whom are still 100% biologically men with a penis? Where are these studies that prove trans women are more vulnerable to suicide and murder and all the rest of it? I've never seen anything convincing compared to the stark statistics on the female victims of male violence.

You really have drunk the Kool-Aid. Feminism is about girls and women, not men. Trans women have no right to our spaces in toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons or sports events. They have no right to hog airspace when we are trying to discuss things that affect us like menstruation, contraception, childbirth, female illnesses, menopause, pregnancy, maternity leave, abortion, rape, discrimination at work. They have their own experiences and their own battles. We have enough to be dealing with. Leave us out of it.

Just a few statistics: 41% of Anerican trans people attempt suicide, as opposed to 4.6% of the general population. I can't link as I'm on my phone but look up the Williams Institute if you're interested. There are pretty stark stats for the direct correlation of mental illness and auto immune diseases and trans identities too. in all of these, trans women of colour are at highest risk. There are various statistics around the number of attacks and murders of trans people - obviously, globally it's a very mixed picture and some places are far safer than others. The statistic that was quoted for a long time but has been questioned a bit is that one in twelve trans women are at significant risk of murder (one in eight for trans women of colour). Have you read much trans / lgbt+ history? There are some stories that would break anyone's heart.

I can't go along with the 'we women have enough to deal with, let the trans folk fight their own battles' argument. Yes, I have a lot to deal with in my life! But I care passionately about all people who are vulnerable, marginalised, in danger, etc etc. Maybe my awareness of my own vulnerability makes me more aware of others'. I don't think that makes me less feminist (and to be honest I wouldn't be interested in any form of feminism that denied the pain, suffering or oppression of others. Intersectionality all the way!)

but to me, feminism has taken a wrong turn if women can't check their comparative privilege

What comparative privileges are those? How was I m

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys

Would you rather have him in the women's bathroom with the girls?

He has to pee soemwhere, doesn't he? (Okay, a sex offender belongs to prison, to MALE prison, precisely, but if he has to go to a public toilet, it should be the men's)

I don't feel entirely safe with transmen (biological females who take testosterone) in women's spaces, but I'd much rather have them in there than transwomen (biological males who may or may not have undergone surgery and/or take estrogen).

At least, if a transman rapes me, I won't get pregnant from it. Priorities.

Also, transmen are, on average smaller and less muscular than transwomen, so less of a threat even though science has found they commit violent crimes on the same level as men and transwomen do.

Whoops -posted too soon!

How did I have privilege growing up as a girl compared with a boy?

And actually, tea, many of us are also busy - with fighting the erosion if female-only spaces against the tide of TAs saying, no we don't just want safe spaces, we want your spaces and if you object, you're a transphobic terf.

Why are they suicidal? Because women are mean to them? What about the stats on those who are still depressed after they transition, is that women's fault too?

Have you seen the misogyny and homophobia on transactivist sites? Or the attempts to coerce lesbians into sex with men because not to do so is "transphobic"? The cotton ceiling? The attempts to remove the word mother from maternity literature? The many instances of predators masquerading as women to attack women in women only spaces? The laws which now deem a man to be a woman if he says so-no surgery or anything? The Olympic Committee ruling that allows men compete in women's events? Does this suggest vulnerability to you?

I see the trans issue as quite separate to gay rights as do many gay people I know. Many gay people believe the trans agenda erases their identities as butch lesbians or feminine gay men and want no part of it. Intersectionality shouldn't be some glib assumption when the rights of one group are in direct conflict with those of another.

You might disagree with their gendered self-identity, but please bear this in mind: yes, women are disadvantaged and vulnerable - but trans women are far more disadvantaged and vulnerable

What are you basing this on?

Hi Rhonda, I don't know you so I don't know how privileged your childhood was. :)

I was thinking of the average woman's privilege as opposed to the average trans woman's privilege, and if you start to read the data (for starters, I'd refer you back to the USA suicide stats I quoted), the average woman probably does have it easier. If you're interested, look up an article by Rebecca Stotzer from Hawaii University (although she doesn't compare and contrast violence against women and trans women).

I don't really believe in comparative suffering anyway; each person's experiences are unique and have a unique impact on that person. But what it comes down to for me is, to be honest, I know that I am relatively privileged, and I'd rather choose to use that privilege to help those at greater risk than myself. Looking at lots of data and the anecdotal evidence of the trans women I know, it seems that trans women are disadvantaged in just about every way.

Teafuelled I'm guessing that women who have been sexually abused or been the victims of male violence have a pretty high attempted suicide rate, too. What about their right to safe women-only spaces?

I don't want to share a toilet/changing room/refuge with someone with a penis. Is that really so hard to understand? I also don't want to be worrying that a man can throw on a dress, regardless of 'perceived gender', and be without question admitted into these spaces (plenty of examples of this upthread).

I will ask again - what's wrong with a gender-neutral toilet? Why do women have to sacrifice their spaces?

of course the transwomen you know are going to give anecdotal evidence that they're the most disadvantaged group!

Why is a transwoman more at risk in a toilet where there are men, than a woman in a toilet with men?

Why do women have to sacrifice their spaces?

Because that is the whole point of it?

I have long ceased believing in the myth that transwomen only want to have a safe place to pee. Some of the old-fashioned transsexuals (now called "truscum" by the transwacktivists and accused of transphobia) may want that, but the ones campaigning for law changes to give males access to women's spaces only want to invade women's spaces.

Exercising dominance over women is the whole point of it. It is very much like rape in that respect, and that is why I am very, very, very sure that even those trans"women" who wear frocks and high heels will rape women.

Once men are legally allowed to enter women's toilets, your average rapist will just walk in there, too, but I don't really think that those who "present" as women are safe to be around.

SeekEvery - I can't link as I'm on my phone but there are lots of data showing, for example, that in the USA trans women are very economically disadvantaged. In the UK, a quarter of young homeless people are lgbt, which doesn't surprise me one bit. Have you read much about any of this?

Also Teafuelled, do you honestly mean to tell me that a 'woman' who looks like this (complete with penis) is at 'greater risk' than me? Risk from what?

I'm guessing he's never had to worry about sexual harassment (from catcalls in the street to sexual assault). I'm guessing he's never had to give a second thought to which is the quickest/safest way to walk home after dark. I'm thinking he's never had to wonder if the clothes he's wearing send out 'the wrong signal', whether his skirt is 'too short' (not a problem, seeing as he wears suits).

So, yeah, please do enlighten me as to the 'risk' this man faces, and how they trump the risks that women face daily.

Shins, yes, I've seen all that.

Oh well, I'm sure I won't persuade any of you!

My basic take on this:

I don't mind trans women sharing women's spaces. I don't care very much about what's between the legs.

If it were a particularly vulnerable trans woman (and many of them are), I'd be proactive in helping her feel and indeed stay safe.

I find the idea that my experiences / sufferings / vulnerability as a woman somehow outweigh the experiences / sufferings / vulnerability of a trans woman morally repellant and a denial of our shared humanity.

If anyone were to suggest that any or all of this makes me less feminist, I wouldn't be that bothered.

I have not seen a women that I think might be a man

maybe some transwomen have passed but most raise suspicions something just seems different within a few seconds even in Thailand where they probably are more likely to pass as women as they tend to be smaller in build and height

Just to add: any trans women reading this, please know that not all of MN thinks the same way! I'd go to the loo with you any time :)

Maybe trans women are vulnerable but why is it down to women (again) to make everything better? Haven't we got enough to do?

If trans women are vulnerable then what is it they are vulnerable from? Male violence? Women have been trying to sort out male violence for several mellenia and we haven't got very far. Why do they think we can solve it on their behalf?

I find the idea that my experiences / sufferings / vulnerability as a woman somehow outweigh the experiences / sufferings / vulnerability of a trans woman morally repellant

More repellant than a man in a women's refuge?

I have utmost compassion for any individual's suffering. I do, however, think it's not right that they should increase or cause the suffering of others by their actions. Isn't that fair enough?

tearfuelled You seem to think that by accepting trans women as women in women's spaces is neutral but it really isn't. Sometimes decisions are going to disadvantage somebody no matter what you do and you are playing victim top trumps by putting the feelings of transwomen above the safety of women.

The neutral option is to have intentional unisex facilities rather than this hap hazard free for all.

I don't understand how transwomen are going to be safe in the women's toilet when men can come in anyway.

Queen: yes, exactly! Trans women are at high risk of sexual violence because of the patriarchy. Men act violently towards trans women because they undermine patriarchal constructs of masculinity. So, as I say frequently, patriarchy hurts not only women but others too (men as well). Which is why for me, it's not enough that feminism simply looks out for the interests of women but names and shames the thing that oppresses, I.e. Patriarchy.

Have you ever heard a trans woman talk honestly and deeply about her life? This stuff becomes very heartbreakingly obvious if / when you do.