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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

999 replies

katmanwho · 28/04/2016 16:53

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"
OP posts:
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23
Pangurban1 · 29/04/2016 13:20

"subset of men who have an XY-chromosome, or the subset of women who have an XX-chromosome". What a ridiculous statement.

Reinventing reality. 'Subsets' of men don't have XY and 'subsets' of women don't have XX. These are the normal genetics of sex determination for each sex. Basic secondary level biology books would be a good place to start. Abnormalities or errors with the normal mechanism gives rise to any other variations in numbers of chromosomes or someones phenotype being expressed differently to their genotype.

If a subset is a small portion or division, any other variation on the male XY or the female XX would be a subset. What a normal genotype and phenotype XY most certainly is not is a subset of XX.

www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/21c_pre_2011/genetics/genesinheritencerev3.shtml

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/04/2016 13:32

Surely public toilets etc are segregated by sex, not gender? Therefore you use the toilet that corresponds to your sex? What gender you identify as, if any is irrelevant.

If we start segregating by gender we will need millions of toilets for each different gender, and what about otherkin etc

PennyDreadfuI · 29/04/2016 14:15

as ridiculous as it is I feel nervous to share my true feelings!

And there it is. Once again, women are silenced.

soapboxqueen, what a brilliant post.

PennyDreadfuI · 29/04/2016 14:21

Oh good God Fine, don't start with otherkin Grin

One of DD's friends 'came out' to his friends, teachers etc this week as deerkin. He has a deer name and has said he needs to be able to run around the school field every couple of hours. Maybe he needs a special toilet, too. Or maybe he does his business while he's on one of his gambols, I don't know. Whatever it is he does he's a DEER doncha know, and his teachers and peers have to accept and respect that. True story.

Tumblr, you have a lot to answer for.

seagreengirl · 29/04/2016 14:30

Whats a deer name?... Bambi

soapboxqueen · 29/04/2016 14:54

JAPAB
^Transmen don't stop being men and transwomen don't stop being women just because stat-collecting about various issues might have to become more nuanced.

The recorders would just have to be careful about whether tor not the data recorded pertains to the subset of men who have an XY-chromosome, or the subset of women who have an XX-chromosome.^

There is no indication that nuanced data collection is even being considered. I dare say it is transphobic to single out trans people like this. Personally I think it is part of a wider conversation about gender and when people need to know. So for online forms about holidays in Malta, they don't need a m/f option. For most jobs a single identifier would suffice. For criminal, medical and professions where it may be needed a two letter indicator so FF MM MF FM IF IM FX MX etc Where first digit indicates biological sex and second on social gender.

^If David Cameron came out tomorrow as trans racial, would we really be celebrating that black people can achieve anything because he had shown them the way?

If not, why not?

Even in this hypothetical scenario where 'trans-racialism' was accepted, he would not be of the subset of black people who have been traditionally disadvantaged. So not really anything especially worth celebrating.^

However this is already happening for women because transwomen were always women. A transwomen who climbs the career ladder in a male gender role full of male privilege, then transitions is a beacon for all us women who didn't get that privilege on how to be successful. Apparently Hmm

soapboxqueen · 29/04/2016 14:56

Total italics fail. Sorry

FloraFox · 29/04/2016 16:06

Transmen don't stop being men and transwomen don't stop being women

MTTs never begin being women. HTH.

RuthyToothy · 29/04/2016 18:39

the subset of men who have an XY-chromosome, or the subset of women who have an XX-chromosome.

Laughable. Just laughable.

Those born male/female are now 'subsets' of man/woman, are they? Grin

JAPABimtheonewhoknocks · 29/04/2016 23:04

Laughable. Just laughable.

We all have our sense of humour. I find it amusing that some people think that there are facts or science that tell us what words have to mean or denote. So no, the definitions created by some men long ago where man would be used to denote XY and woman to denote XX, cannot ever be changed. Because reality and scientific facts say so, apparently :)

However this is already happening for women because transwomen were always women. A transwomen who climbs the career ladder in a male gender role full of male privilege, then transitions is a beacon for all us women who didn't get that privilege on how to be successful. Apparently

Any "achievements" can only be in the context of what someone were up against to get to that point. I am sure not all transpeople or supporters think in the manner you describe, but I guess we can agree that the ones that do are incorrect.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/04/2016 23:14

So no, the definitions created by some men long ago where man would be used to denote XY and woman to denote XX, cannot ever be changed. Because reality and scientific facts say so, apparently

Are you serious Shock

You are aware of basic biology - how a male and a female is required to create offspring? Sex is binary, unalterable, and undeniable.

One can argue about how important sex is, but you cannot possibly argue that it does not exist! It is a quantifiable attribute, unlike "gender" which is purely qualatitive, and with some individuals will vary depending on mood.

DioneTheDiabolist · 29/04/2016 23:18

Now a bearded man who is dressed like a man has to use female spaces because he is a female on his birth cert. This legislation in North Carolina is nothing short of extreme heteronormative bias to forward a right wing Christian agenda. It is detrimental to the LGBT community and I am not sure it is beneficial to women at all.

JAPABimtheonewhoknocks · 29/04/2016 23:18

One can argue about how important sex is, but you cannot possibly argue that it does not exist!

I am not, and am not sure who is. But whether two particular terms (man and woman) exclusively mean individuals with a specific sex characteristic, is a thing people are in disagreement about. Science cannot help us on that one.

ConfuciousSayWhat · 29/04/2016 23:21

A penis has no place in a women's toilet or a women's changing room

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/04/2016 23:22

Man = adult male of the species
Woman = adult female of the species.

It's really very simple.

SuburbanRhonda · 29/04/2016 23:23

So what are your definitions of the terms "man" and "woman", japab?

ConfuciousSayWhat · 29/04/2016 23:24

The presence of a Y chromosome is usually the ultimate defining factor

Alasalas2 · 29/04/2016 23:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PinkyOfPie · 29/04/2016 23:35

JAPAB semantics is not the problem here. The words 'men' and 'women' could be replaced with 'bacon' and 'egg' for all I care - or they could be redefined which TAs seem to be trying to already do - the problem would still be exactly the same.

ApplesinmyPocket · 30/04/2016 00:24

Yes, that's what we want isn't it. A word which uniquely belongs to 'those of the sex which can give birth '.

We had one once but as JAPAB reminds us often, it's been redefined.

GraysAnalogy · 30/04/2016 00:32

I still am confused because

a man can walk into a toilet, he may have had surgery and look exactly like a woman. but you dont know he has a penis.

a woman can walk into a toilet. She may not look like a 'woman' but is.

also

that first person could go into the mens toilets and become a victim because they assume they're female.

I'm not comfortable with that.

nocoolnamesleft · 30/04/2016 04:03

I'm not comfortable sharing what are meant to be safe spaces for women, and hard won at that, (toilets, changing rooms, refuges) with people who have a penis, and the body strength from having gone through male puberty.

And rates of violent crime continue to match sex, not gender. Unfortunately.

GraysAnalogy · 30/04/2016 04:08

What if that person has a vagina but looks like a man though? You aren't going to feel more comfortable, you dont know that person isnt a man.

I'm not defending either side btw I'm still on the fence, I'm just confused by some things in this debate.

SuburbanRhonda · 30/04/2016 08:01

What if that person has a vagina but looks like a man though? You aren't going to feel more comfortable, you dont know that person isnt a man.

For me it's not so much about feeling uncomfortable with someone who "looks like a man", whatever that might mean. It's about feeling unsafe if there were legislation in place to protect any predatory man's right to be in a women's facility if he says he is a woman.