Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

There is a thread currently running in chat about how many women have experienced sexual harrassment, violence or intimidation just by being a woman. So far in over 110 replies, only 2 women have said no, they've never experienced it. Most of the women in the thread are talking about repeated, multiple incidences, many occuring under the age of 18, many from unknown males because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Being born female means learning to be careful and plan about personal safety in spaces shared with men, and for most women that learning has been reinforced by hard, bad experience. Sometimes hideous experience.

Asking those women to be fine about men in private places such as bathrooms and changing rooms, and to put their vulnerabilities aside to protect these men's vulnerabilities because people with vaginas are safer to be with, is asking a hell of a lot. Shouting 'bigot' to silence any woman with concerns about this is also unhelpful. I would be wary of entering a public toilet where a man was the only other occupant. I would be wary of entering a public toilet in the evenings or at night where men may be in the cubicles or in the room. Those men may very well be absolutely innocent of any ill intent - if I walk through my local multi storey car park at night 99 out of 100 of the men I meet there will be innocent of any ill intent. The hundredth may be the one who slams me up against a car and takes advantage of catching me alone in an unseen place. (And the police will ask me afterwards why I put myself in an unseen place alone)

I'm not willing to take one for the team from that hundredth to protect the other 99 men. I'm sorry but I'm not. I'm not willing for my sisters, mother, friends and nieces to take one for the team in the name of public spiritedness either. These are genuine, real risks. Cultural issues also need to be taken into account. There may be entire cultural groups who will no longer be able to access public loos (and other facilities) at all if they cannot have an assured women only safe space.

Guess the OP has gone back to real life on Tumblr.

She wasn't really interested in any view that didn't validate her own, was she?

I often wonder why the likes of Alex Drummond don't for one second consider the feelings of really women in their plight for male presenting people to share safe spaces with women. I'm torn between wondering if he's a bad person, or of its just a result of male privelege - he would never know how we feel because he has never, and will never be, a woman.

I just went to get a takeaway. There was a man who stared at my arse from the moment I walked in to the moment I left, following me with his eyes as I left even staring at me through the window. I felt deeply uncomfortable. Men do not experience this as part of everyday life. And before TAs refute my point - Alex Drummond may be stared at because he wears a dress while having a beard - this is not the same as being the more vulnerable sex and having someone stare who feels their sexual desire trumps your comfort and feeling of safety.

Yes there is being looked at and someone undressing you with their eyes, you can see their brain ticking away with their fantasy, it's dreadful.

Caitlyn Jenner has been flying across America to visit bathrooms, the latest in Trump towers.

"I'm not willing to take one for the team from that hundredth to protect the other 99 men. I'm sorry but I'm not. I'm not willing for my sisters, mother, friends and nieces to take one for the team in the name of public spiritedness either."

I think this is a big problem. As women, we often get told by society that rape, assault and harassment is partly our own fault, and we should take measures to avoid it. Watch what you wear, how you carry yourself, make sure you stay in a group, keep an eye on your drinks, don't drink too much because you might get raped - hell, with the last one, police forces have even done poster campaigns.

On the other hand, we're told that we're hysterical and overreacting if we actually do take measures to protect ourselves, or talk about our fears, because Not All Men. Which is true, most men are absolutely fine, but that's not much comfort if you're caught out by one of the ones who aren't.

I don't have a problem with sharing toilets with genuine transwomen - that is people who are taking hormones and have had reassignment surgery. I'd uncomfortable sharing with someone who claimed they identified as a woman, but had no intention of changing physically. I guess there's a huge problem in that in the UK, transwomen have to live as women for years before being allowed surgery, and in the US, treatment is hugely expensive, so how do you tell the difference between a genuine transwoman who's pre-transition, and a predator?

Maybe a better solution would be a massive shift in society to crack down on male entitlement, violence against women and sex crimes, instead of dismissing it and victim blaming, so we don't have a reason to fear men.

That said, the bathroom bill is bollocks - in the US, a woman was escorted out of the ladies by police, who kept on referring to her as 'sir', because she didn't look feminine enough (she was described as a 'butch' lesbian).

What's bollocks is being expected to believe that biological sex is a construct and that being a woman is a feeling in your head.

Kate single use gender neutral loos would solve this. Like lots of accessible loos. But it would be expensive and transwomen want access to womens loos on a point of principle and predatory men want that to.

Given that the old differences which led to the segregation of toilets in the first place are no longer valid

Eh?

Do you have a direct link to that quote?

So what about post-op TW? Should they have to still use men's toilets, seeing as they were born with a penis?

Beauty I would be fine with post-op TE using toilets. As someone so eloquently put once on MN "no penis no problem"

*TW

Any TA care to justify the 'cotton ceiling' concept?

Because you know being coerced into rape is so much better than being labelled a transphobe

Kate TAs don't want "gender neutral" toilets. They want the validation of being in the women's toilets. There seem to be remarkable few (any) reported incidents of MTTs being attacked in men's toilets.

Oops posted the wrong picture (both are from a TA site). Here's the right one

This makes me furious. Lesbians are already sick of hearing from men that they should be attracted to men, and having their orientation sexualised for men's pleasure. Now it seems that men who "feel like" women actually expect them to have sex with people with penises.

I really would like those of you supporting self identification to tell me why this is ok

I appreciate that the OP has probably left now but I disagree that the majority of people understand and agree with the trans agenda. I think most people are on board with the concept of transsexual. That somebody is so upset by what they percieve as wrong about their body, they take drastic steps to change it.

I think what most don't realise is that increasingly that is not the case. There is no surgery and an increasing aggressive stance that simply saying 'I am a woman' is sufficient. Most people in real life are not comfortable with this. They are often shocked and quickly come up with a range of situations where that shouldn't happen.

If the new trans proposal is accepted in the UK, you will not be able to challenge anybody if you think they shouldn't be in a sex segregated space. Even just challenging will be against the law.

If you ask for a female nurse or doctor for intimate care and Ross Kemp walks in, you will not be able to refuse them based on that.

If you are sick /disabled and ask for a female attendent and an obviously male person walks in to take you to the toilet, you cannot complain.

The new proposals plan to exempt trans people from laws that provide individuals the right to choose a male or female in these situations. Also changing gender will take about 4 days. No hormones, no surgery, no anything just a few clicks on t'internet and you're good to go.

It really isn't about shutting out trans people. They have a right to live as they choose. It's about badly written laws that remove the protections of an already discriminated and victimised class of people eg women. It's about painting women as a privileged class when we really aren't. It's about.... Well it's about a whole lot of things but for me it boils down to, how do you stop discrimination and abuse of women if woman just means person? How do you target resources if woman can be male and female? How do you get to the crux of a problem if you obfuscate the data, the language and laws.

We couldn't begin to tackle racism if we pretended that skin colour didn't exist. We'd be having chats about how some people are more likely to be pulled over or shot by the police but we've no clue why.

If David Cameron came out tomorrow as trans racial, would we really be celebrating that black people can achieve anything because he had shown them the way?

If not, why not?

We couldn't begin to tackle racism if we pretended that skin colour didn't exist. We'd be having chats about how some people are more likely to be pulled over or shot by the police but we've no clue why.

Transmen don't stop being men and transwomen don't stop being women just because stat-collecting about various issues might have to become more nuanced.

The recorders would just have to be careful about whether tor not the data recorded pertains to the subset of men who have an XY-chromosome, or the subset of women who have an XX-chromosome.

If David Cameron came out tomorrow as trans racial, would we really be celebrating that black people can achieve anything because he had shown them the way?

If not, why not?

Even in this hypothetical scenario where 'trans-racialism' was accepted, he would not be of the subset of black people who have been traditionally disadvantaged. So not really anything especially worth celebrating.