Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

If you're going to include ears and eyes, then you have to consider all the sweat pores. And nipples.

Nipples!! And some people have more of those.

How about vagowners?

What I think is that there should be different words for sex and gender classifications.
Women and men should be for sex classifications.
Then, you'd have different words/acronyms for gender:
I suggest something like: blokes, ladies, agender, vipers, wannabes, and so on.

There's an idea.

This is why I love MN. I can share my thoughts on this. I tried on Facebook and got booted from a group after being ganged up on by women I put down as being intelligent. It's terrifying how people are just accepting this, they think it's another strong on the bow of gay right (it's not).

Let's make sure we will keep talking about this so the likes of cake will be enlightened whereas they weren't before.

I genuinely don't know how people can support self identification with a straight face. The patriarchy must be brimming with glee - not only do they continue to oppress women, they've got women willingly and enthusiastically oppressing women and practically pumping cushions making room for men in women's spaces.

*string

Talkinginthedark Re "129. The Alliance also advocated the introduction of a legal provision allowing for certain posts, “perhaps where providing support specifically to trans people”, to be available only to trans people, “as exists for other protected characteristics”.

So...being trans is a protected characteristic, but being biologically female isn't. "

I must include this in mt letter to Maria Miller. I wonder if I as a bio.logical woman could self identify as a trans woman. Then I could apply for a job being a spokes person for trans issues. Would that be OK? I could ask! No, don;t ask about my genitalia, it's none of your businesses, I am a trans woman and have always been so, I could say! But life really is too short for this crap so I will need to include in my letter some basic logic instead of this shit!!

Can you give me the full name for government report or link to it, please?

SuburbanRhonda re "... is it worth raising this as a concern or do you think we'd just be ignored, as has happened so far?"

I think it is always worth writing about these issues to as many people as you think will listen. I might even send a copy to Dave C! I am going to ask if I can meet Maria Miller or my local MP or Caroline Dinenage, who replied to my letter (or rather send me a shit standard letter that did not address any of my concerns!).

Cocolepew re "Revery article about TW it is mentioned that they are the most vulnerable group of people in society." Can you link to it, where do they get that from. I feel they are exploiting trans women of colour who are a very oppressed group, so the likes of Cait who is rich and white gets to buy into the oppression felt by genuinely ill-treated and victimized black trans women.

What about trans men, they are also victims of violence, because they are female. Potentially like all females. Anyone know any stats comparing rates of violence for women, men, trans women and trans men. I know there was a report on prostitution that said women were more likely to be victims of violence than trans women also engaged in prostitution.

Talking re
"The roots of our oppression lie entirely in our biology" etc etc
and

"Maybe we really need to be pushing this point. That transwomen face a particular set of challenges and discrimination but that so do we and they are not by any means all overlapping. We are being erased here and there has to be some principle of equality where we can challenge this and make the case that having a biologically female body needs to be a protected characteristic in and of itself."

I just has to re-post that as it is so true. I think we do need to really push for this. Not that we don't want trans people to be protected but that biology also needs to be protected because it does affect us.

:Pinky I know "I genuinely don't know how people can support self identification with a straight face. The patriarchy must be brimming with glee - not only do they continue to oppress women, they've got women willingly and enthusiastically oppressing women and practically pumping cushions making room for men in women's spaces." It's so shit, isn't it. Women turning on women! . I do feel I need to get beyond sad to angry!

Yes, biological women should be called women. End of.

But, ideally, we'd get rid of social constructs of what "makes" a woman or a man.

AFAIK, even for transexuals to be considered for sex ops they'd have to be "living as a woman" for X time. That seems to mean wearing "female" clothes, have "female" hairstyles and make up, heels and so on. Does that define a woman? No.

It feels like we are going through a crisis and this might be a good time to redefine gender (as social construct) stereotypes.

The problem is people who claim that gender is fluid and so long as you self define as a woman that makes you a woman and any questioning is transphobic.

I really doubt that anyone would object to someone who has lived as a woman, had surgery, legally changed their gender etc using the bathroom of their newly assigned gender

Gender fluidity sort of negates its existence, though.

Could anyone at any point define what is it to "feel" like a woman?

Dark thanks I just saw you linked to it.

WilLiAmHerschel re "It's like the greatest scam ever that a bunch of men have managed to convince loads of people, including policy makers, that they are actually the group most at harm of violence; they are the most oppressed; they are the ones who suffer; and they need access to space that has been designated as 'female only'. It's insane that this is happening and every time I see a woman supporting all that I just can't understand why on earth they are."

Women are supporting this because they feel it is a human rights issue. They have not seen the clip of

Women: Decide For Yourselves

or

www.newsadvance.com/news/local/lynchburg-woman-indicted-on-rape-charge/article_dfad94f8-035b-5822-92ba-22889896806b.html where a male crime is reported as a female crime.

They are not thinking with their brains, they are 'thinking' with their hearts which sees trans women as just like us, looking like us, feeling like us, and of course they need protection. BUT there are trans women who get it. IMHO we may really need to seek out such people and get help. Ironic that as women we may need males who became 'females' to give us the legitimacy to stand for rights for genuine females! Or am I just musing!

Certainly we need to appear (and be) as compassionate as those women 'fighting' for trans rights, we just need to use logic because biology is more logical than 'feelings'.

We really also need to keep talking about this and not shying away from it.

The [[http://www.transgendertrend.com/uk-government-report-on-transgender-equality/] may be a good place to start.

My word of warning having been flamed is to be careful if sharing in groups about some sites that talk about male violence when dressed as women.

Some of the links do not work, if people follow these sites with multiple stories on and do not get the story they will assume it is not true.

Also great long lines of links may be too much for people to take in! If you are asked and share a variety of stories from the news source, e.g. BBC or whatever American newspaper or site, rather than a feminist site I think people will find this easier to understand.

If you post something like what you find if you Google 'The Threat to Women and Girls Presented by Bathroom Bills' you may overwhelm people, but if you look at what you find when you Google that and then post individual links to individual stories people may find it easier to connect with.

In some of these long files there are examples from the UK. For UK people this may make more sense than examples from across the globe...

EG www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/transvestite-rapist-jailed-963868

In the article the abuser is labelled as a 'transvestite' but today he might well have said trans gender. Either way he was dressed in "make-up, a wig, women's clothing and high heels when he raped and filmed a woman in his cab".

Or is what i am saying very obvious, sorry if it is!

I do think we need to keep on writing to those in power too.

Must get on now but so glad to have found you all!

If men are saying their male reproductive organs are actually female, then I think that is the end of entertaining that bull**it. A penis is a male organ. Think a very famous reality show, Mens decathlon olympic champion. Perfectly functioning fecund loins siring many offspring with the opposite sex. Provision of sperm, impregnating the female of the species. A prime example of a perfectly functioning and very fertile male reproductive system.

In fact to win the MENS olympic decathlon, I think you'd need to be a very fine specimen of manhood and in it's prime to boot.

As for women being servants of the patriarchy. Think FGM, foot binding. 'Twas ever thus.

The irony is this very traditional kowtowing to the men (who are telling women what a woman is, i.e what they say it is) is being portrayed as so very modern. Your chains are wings, eh!

Lweji - the last thread on here concluded that it is gender that's the issue, not sex. If we just said that some men like to wear dresses and make up, and some women like to have beards, for example, without associating it to male or female (effectively getting rid of the concept of "trans") yet continued to segregate based on sex, then there'd be no issues.

I don't know what feeling "like a woman" means. I have feminine and masculine aspects to my personality, but I am a woman because I have the female chromosomes, genitals and functions. I thoroughly object to the idea that I am therefore not a woman because I don't feel like one.

If "feeling like a woman" is wanting to wear dresses and make up then I think that's very sad indeed. All the wonderful things women have achieved in this world, and superficial qualities is what our 'gender' is reduced to.

Actually thinking about it, I feel strong and empowered and intelligent - therefore I do feel like a woman, because to me that's what women are. Or do I need to get validation on my feelings from a man in a dress before that's seen as "OK"? Do trans people have the monopoly on what genders feel like?

Not all of that was for Lweji BTW - just the first para. The rest is me thinking out loud

I don't know if you have seen this it may be a prank, even so please do watch. It shows a youtube star man he says he is not a trans woman dressing as a woman and entering the bathroom to gage the reaction.

For me the largest part of feeling like a woman (as opposed to being a woman which I do each and every day) is the sense of rage and injustice I feel when I see women getting fucked over.

Which isn't to say I am unable to feel for groups to which I do not belong.

I was bloody furious with the Green Party of E&W when they decided to have men and non-men. I am not a non-man.

Everything else is just a cultural social construct. And as such can be changed.

TheMaidWasInTheGarden interesting. But would a 'real' trans person just leave?

This has been a great thread.

Thanks to everyone for contributing.

TheMaid I strongly suspect that video is about as real as Caitlyn Jenner's vagina

So am I right in thinking that under a policy of "I am a woman/man if I say I am" I (woman) can declare myself a man and go to my local mosque and demand access to men only areas and if the mosque refuse they will be subject to criminal charges?

That's the long and short of it no! Although it may be that there are some exemptions. Probably ones that favour men rather than women.