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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

999 replies

katmanwho · 28/04/2016 16:53

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"
OP posts:
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23
BombadierFritz · 02/05/2016 09:45

Oh ffs

OfCrayonBorn · 02/05/2016 10:02

I hadn't noticed that Talking - arghhh! so transwomen are women, except when they aren't.

If gender identity becomes a protected characteristic, it cancels out sex. There is no way to protect both without a clash of interests.

I've been pondering this, and if someone's being discriminated against because they're a male in a dress, surely that's sex discrimination, because a female in a dress wouldn't be discriminated in these circumstances. Perhaps I'm missing something?

SuburbanRhonda · 02/05/2016 10:10

So if dissenting voices to this bill aren't being listened to generally, would it make a difference if someone was objecting to the hypocrisy you've pointed out, talking?

I mean, is it worth raising this as a concern or do you think we'd just be ignored, as has happened so far?

Cocolepew · 02/05/2016 10:30

Revery article about TW it is mentioned that they are the most vulnerable group of people in society.
When did adult men start being more vulnerable than children?

LittleMissBossyBoots · 02/05/2016 10:39

I've not read the whole thread yet, still ploughing through, but I've seen a few comments about Scandi type nakedness that I want to address. I live in Sweden and have done for many years. Sweden does indeed have very relaxed attitudes to nakedness but in my experience it's not in the way you seem to think.

Nakedness in young children is seen as completely natural. I've been to pick my son up from daycare (up to 7 years) in the summer to find all the kids, boys and girls, stripped off naked and running around in the sun and sprinklers.

People strip off without batting an eyelid at the pool. Showering naked before swimming is a requirement of most places. Happily sitting naked in the sauna is normal whatever you're age or shape. HOWEVER, I have never come across a place where the sexes are required to mix when naked. Adults do not get naked at the beach unless it's a designated nude beach.

We are indeed very relaxed about nakedness but within the boundaries of sex segregation.

OfCrayonBorn · 02/05/2016 10:48

Cocolepew without wanting to invoke Godwins law, it's a lie that is being repeated, like 'trans women are women', and 'there are no recorded cases of women being attacked by trans women' and people are swallowing it.

Trunkadunk · 02/05/2016 11:11

The only violent assaults I've suffered in my life have been at the hands of other females, although I've certainly had my fair share of groping and lewd comments from men. I don't personally feel particularly nervous of men, and when I was younger I was quite afraid of women but so naive that I thought men didn't pose a threat.

Sexually touching someone without consent is a violent assault. Sexual violence is violence. Sorry, I'm not picking on your post but I think we become so used to certain kinds of male aggression we don't count them.

Trunkadunk · 02/05/2016 11:12

Revery article about TW it is mentioned that they are the most vulnerable group of people in society. When did adult men start being more vulnerable than children?

The activists especially Stefonknee do act like spoilt children... maybe that's the confusion?

treaclesoda · 02/05/2016 12:19

Trunk yes, after I posted that I actually thought that myself. For clarification what I should maybe have said was violent in the sense of being physically painful rather than emotionally? Not sure how to define it really. I have never been punched by a male but I have by a female. Although I was a teenager both times it happened, so it hasn't happened in recent years.

I suppose when I've been groped etc it has made me angry rather than afraid?

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 12:32

I don't know if it would make a difference, Rhonda, the levels of denial around this issue are so astronomical, but I think it's worth doing anyway!

I'm starting to wonder if our only hope is to argue this from the POV that sex is a protected characteristic too. Because it is, in law. Not for hate crimes, but in general.

The things that make our biological sex a protected characteristic are completely unaffected by and unrelated to gender identity. Our generally smaller and weaker physical size and strength, our vulnerability in terms of pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding - that is biology. It is not "assigned to us at birth"; it is set of physiological realities.

The roots of our oppression lie entirely in our biology, not our gender identity. The discrimination and violence we have always faced and still face initially arose from and were enabled by these basic biological differences. They are now enabled by the weight of countless generations of misogyny as well, and by the socialisation we still receive as girls to be accommodating of others, to put others first, to accept that we count as "less".

Of course feminism has challenged this and is challenging this but I think most of us know there is still a very long way to go.

So from that persepctive - could we make this a human rights issue?

Maybe we really need to be pushing this point. That transwomen face a particular set of challenges and discrimination but that so do we and they are not by any means all overlapping. We are being erased here and there has to be some principle of equality where we can challenge this and make the case that having a biologically female body needs to be a protected characteristic in and of itself.

Worcswoman · 02/05/2016 13:14

Talkinginthedark sorry but that's complete nonsense. Such nonsense I don't know where to start, it should be self evident.

Worcswoman · 02/05/2016 13:20

Talkinginthedark Apologies, I've read your comment again after posting and done a complete 180. Sorry, I'd delete my previous if I could.

Trunkadunk · 02/05/2016 13:34

Trunk yes, after I posted that I actually thought that myself. For clarification what I should maybe have said was violent in the sense of being physically painful rather than emotionally? Not sure how to define it really. I have never been punched by a male but I have by a female. Although I was a teenager both times it happened, so it hasn't happened in recent years.

Yes, that makes sense. Flowers

SuburbanRhonda · 02/05/2016 13:35

talking

Thank you for that brilliant explanation. I'm going to write to Maria Miller about this and hope she gets her head out of her arse long enough to reply. Not holding my breath, though.

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 14:09

Worcswoman Grin I have to confess I'm curious as to how you arrived at your first conclusion but glad you revised your opinion! If you really want to delete your earlier post it's easy, just report it and ask MNHQ to withdraw it. I don't mind either way myself!

Rhonda very glad you found that useful, nice to hear! Sadly, I can't see Maria Miller taking any notice, we're just bigots purporting to be feminists to her. But I too will write, if not to her directly then to the email address given on the Report itself.

From the Report:
All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Women and Equalities Committee, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6123; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 14:11

Here's another link to the Government Report, in case anyone needs it:

transgender equality report

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 14:40

This is one of the sections that gives cause for really deep concern:

132. Significant concerns have been raised with us regarding the provisions of the Equality Act concerned with separate-sex and single-sex services and the genuine occupational requirement as these relate to trans people. These are sensitive areas, where there does need to be some limited ability to exercise discretion, if this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. However, we are not persuaded that this discretion should apply where a trans person has been recognised as of their acquired gender “for all legal purposes” under the Gender Recognition Act. In many instances this is unlikely, in any case, to meet the proportionate test. We recommend that the Equality Act be amended so that the occupational requirements provision and / or the single-sex / separate services provision shall not apply in relation to discrimination against a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

So they're saying that while there could still be some exclusion of trans people wrt to single sex and separate sex services/employment, this would NOT be the case for people with a GRC.

And at the same time, from earlier in the same report, as has already been quoted on here:

45. Within the current Parliament, the Government must bring forward proposals to update the Gender Recognition Act, in line with the principles of gender self-declaration that have been developed in other jurisdictions. In place of the present medicalised, quasi-judicial application process, an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers.

Getting a GRC will be a simple, administrative process of self declaration. So at a stroke it is possible for anyone who wishes, apparently, to become legally female, and then to gain access to any single/separated sex services/resources whatsoever.

This to me is male violence against women.

This is taking away the right of female bodied people to assemble, to support each other, to prioritise each other, without the presence of male bodied people. It only "works" if you subscribe to the ideology that a transwoman is a woman, is female, which I subscribe to about as much as I subscribe to Scientology.

In fact I often feel that I have woken up to find myself in a world where a cult (like Scientology) has taken hold and become the established norm in all those circles which were previously campaigning against dangerous, irrational cults and the harm they do to people; a world where suddenly those who won't conform to bigoted, oppressive stereotypes are the new bigots and those who seek to impose them are the face of "equality".

What are we going to call ourselves to differentiate ourselves from male bodied people who "identity as female" and are therefore legally recognised as women, now they've stolen our identity and our right to self-identify along with everything else? XX beings? The class formerly known as women? Triple orificed people?

Hm. TOPs. Has a nice ring to it.

WilLiAmHerschel · 02/05/2016 14:45

It's like the greatest scam ever that a bunch of men have managed to convince loads of people, including policy makers, that they are actually the group most at harm of violence; they are the most oppressed; they are the ones who suffer; and they need access to space that has been designated as 'female only'. It's insane that this is happening and every time I see a woman supporting all that I just can't understand why on earth they are.

EmpressOfTheSevenOceans · 02/05/2016 14:53

Well, someone suggested Vaginasaurus Regina?

EmpressOfTheSevenOceans · 02/05/2016 14:54

(Sorry, I mean as a new name).

Pastamancer · 02/05/2016 15:03

We are told that calling transwomen men is violence and that it is literally killing them by saying he instead of she. Changing the definition of woman to mean man who prefers to be called woman is surely violent towards women and we are literally being killed by the TAs?

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 15:20

Yes, yes and yes.

TalkingintheDark · 02/05/2016 15:33

WilLiAm it is like some big hoax dreamed up by the MRAs as a way of punking us women, isn't it? Except the MRAs seem to find it as irrational as we do, and that's weird right there.

I'm still thinking about going for Triple Orificed People. I think if you started a petition setting out the ways in which Triple Orificed People are disadvantaged respectively to Double Orificed People and at risk of violence from them etc etc, and asking for safe spaces to be reserved exclusively for Triple Orificed People, then the absurdity of the whole thing might just begin to percolate down.

You'd have to do it very straight faced. I might even write to the Equalities committee suggesting they look into the way this group of people is discriminated against and asking for special provision for us, and can we have our own report please with lots and lots of representation, legal and otherwise, of us TOPs, and only one or two voices of DOPs, who would be summarily ignored throughout.

Just like the current report, but in reverse.

RuthyToothy · 02/05/2016 15:34

It's insane that this is happening and every time I see a woman supporting all that I just can't understand why on earth they are.

I have a desperate hope that in a few years from now people will look back at this whole sorry mess and be all 'Hey, remember that mental time when men with penises started saying they were women and everyone had to agree with them, and they were even going to bring in legislation so that you were breaking the law if you said they weren't?! WTF were we all smoking that year?!'

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 02/05/2016 15:36

Em we have more than 3 orifices.
I think in total we 10.
2 ears, 2 nostrils, 2 eyes, mouth, urethra, vagina and anus.

(There's a whole thread about it in chat)

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