Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Augusta - I was once saved from a near attack by a man. (Would be attacker was also a man) I have male relatives who I adore including a son.

I still don't want to get dressed or undressed in front of a strange man who is in the female changing rooms because he "feels" like a woman that day.

Yes, women can be violent but statistically less so and at least I might stand a chance of fighting back against a woman.

In my local gym they have unisex changing room for swimming they have cubicles for people to change in. May be this is way forward making toilets ect unisex.

Cake am not sure if this will help but I does gives some pointers.

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-government-report-on-transgender-equality/

Anyone who is seriously worried about these changes, please write to your MP and Maria Miller.

Any other suggestions on what we could do, anyone?

I don't see the presence of men in toilets, or shop changing rooms as problems, so don't see a problem with "self-declared" women or men in them

As long as you're happy Lweji yeah? That's the important thing.

We are talking about laws here and the implications could be huge, costly and potentially dangerous. I'm thinking of the disabled woman who'd been attacked by her male carer and wished to make a choice of same sex carer, amongst other things. Using the gender neutral (disable) loo is the obvious answer.

If men who wear dresses and wish to cAll themselves 'Loretta' have a problem with that then tough. I don't care how they live but they're not women, never will be. Even if they cut their dick off and are prettier than most. Get over it.

Male carers are allowed to help the elderly and disabled women but they are not allowed to dress and undress them. Regardless of a sex change I think. We are talking about toilets so my dad has to use either the disabled which could be locked or the men's which could be dangerous. He is not a very convincing woman but he does try.

AugustaFinkNottle it's really awful your dd's friend was attacked and it's good she was saved by a man. I hope she is OK. I am truly sorry about your dd's friend, AugustaFinkNottle. What does your dd's friend think would lesson that type of violence? Was it at school? As I say, very sorry.

On a similar point, Lweji Re "Italiangreyhound, I mentioned women who suffered violence from women just to ask how does it work when the group that attacked you and could trigger a sense of insecurity is supposed to be the group where you feel safe.

If a woman victim of male violence would rather not be around men, how does it work for female victims of female violence? I don't know. Are they still ok around women?
And the same for gay men."

I don't know, maybe someone will answer who knows.

But the point I was making was the vast majority of violence if from males. It's not that I am down playing the violence that anyone may experience by women but it's just much less likely, according to the stats posted a few pages back from another poster. Plus girls will generally be the same sort of height and build as each other, of course if there is a gang of them that is very, very dangerous too. But generally women or girls won't be able to rape you, impregnate you, generally won't pass on a sexually transmitted disease that could be fatal.

We can see from the example there is violence perpetrated by females, and often if it is by females, it is against females, is that because they would not be strong enough to fight men or because they have also bought into the patriarchy that women/girls are a target? I just don't know.

Statistically, the likely hood of violence is males not female but the tragic story of a girl killed in the toilets by having her head hit on the sink by a pair of bullies (female) fighting over a boy, (in the USA) absolutely filled me with horror. I do really feel individual unisex completely enclosed toilets like disabled toilets are going to be the safest and least likely to bullying or other negative activities in schools etc, I do feel it is the future. I hope it is. But I also feel fucking angry our young people, and everyone else, can't go to the toilet in peace.

"Which could be locked" ? That's your argument for a law? No, sorry. However nice and weak your dad is (with respect) it's not just about him. Women shouldn't have to give up their rights for your dad in case the disabled loos might be locked.

Soz my previous comment addressed to Bumblebee. Apols.

What about the x boxing coach or promoter who had a sex change and now calls herself Kelly. Her documents changed to say she is Kelly and a female. Is kelly allowed in the girls toilets?

Bumblebee - I think that's what their argument is, that the bloke is now legally, although not biologically, a woman.

Personally I'm against the legal change. I don't know about Alabama.

The solution to that problem *bumble, is to argue for more safe toilets for everyone and to do something about the danger inherent in men's toilets.

Why do we just accept that going into men's toilets is dangerous for people who choose to look or dress or act differently?

Can men neither control themselves nor be chastised?

Why is that the first thing people accept and the last thing they question that men's toilets are dangerous? Well they shouldn't be and if they are they need to be changed (both the toilets and the men).

What about the boys, the gay men, the straight men, the old men, the young men and the MTF transgender who have to use toilets? Why should any of them be in danger because men are men? Because men's toilets are not safe places.

Why should women be in danger because men are men. Why is this problem, like everything men do something that women have to bear the disproportionate burden of solving?

The solution isn't to make women's toilets, or changing rooms, or wards, or prisons or refuges that bit less safe. The solution is to make predominantly male spaces that bit safer so that no one gets assaulted in prison (where the state has duty of care) , nor in a hospital, nor a toilet.

It requires a radical rethink so that your dad can dress and act how he wants and have a penis (or not) without some dick taking an issue with it and without it suddenly being made a woman's problem.

It isn't women the trans lobby should be arguing with.

Instead of campaigning for the right to enter women only spaces why not campaign to make toilets safer?

And augusta that would also have made your dd safer too. If all toilets were single cubicle unisex then there would have been no gang of girls able to lurk either.

bumblebee I thought you might have that round that way. . "In my household we said transvestite." That isn't a very popular word nowadays.

"Male carers are allowed to help the elderly and disabled women but they are not allowed to dress and undress them. Regardless of a sex change I think" You are talking about how things are now, but the law is about to change.

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-government-report-on-transgender-equality/

Also, re "In my local gym they have unisex changing room for swimming they have cubicles for people to change in. May be this is way forward making toilets ect unisex."

We talked about this up-thread. All the local pools do unisex changing areas with cubicals, but they are usually very busy, and staff are often around too, plus they are often quite open plan and people can see into them and get into them easily. It is not the same as a unisex toilet in the middle of town in the late evening or indeed any time of day when few people are around.

Boogers "StKildasNun even if they have a penis, testicles, a beard and wear a Greenwoods special?" I can't think of any other reason for someone like that as it clearly isn't about security. That is not to say it is never about security, but in some cases I really think it is not about security!

treaclesoda I am sorry to hear of your previous experiences. I was very nervous and anxious when younger. I do martial arts now and although I am in no ways a lean-mean-fighting-machine, it has made me feel more confident! The first lesson we learn is run away if you can (just in case you think it is all high kicking!!!)

Anyone know why the sudden explosion of people needing to identify as neither female or male? What is going on?? Isn't life hard enough, enough to get done without all this?

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/transgender-woman-man-binary-nova-scotia-rules-gender-sex-1.3557675

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-teenager-cant-get-a-bank-account-because-they-dont-iden?utm_term=.rsO63o1vz#.myyL3EQG5

This last one has an interesting quote..."“It’s another reminder,” said Kaelin. “A reminder that you’re different. But I don’t think I’m particularly different to other people – I just don’t fit male or female, I drift somewhere in the middle. So going on to the websites and seeing that, it’s disheartening. Even people who haven’t grasped the concept of non-binary or haven’t met anyone who’s non-binary will know that transgender people exist.”

But the whole point seems to be different! I'm female, I don't feel female, I certainly do not want to do things in a specifically female way! But I am female, like ... is it 51% of the planet?

Does anyone know what's wrong with biology? The minute the shit hits the fan biology becomes very important - when you are ill, when you have fertility problems etc, then biology and getting it to work well becomes, almost, everything.

Night all, thanks for the chats today, it's been 'real'.

Anyone know why the sudden explosion of people needing to identify as neither female or male?

One thing we keep discussing here is gender stereotyping. IMO the more stereotyped, the more people tend to assume differences as being a different gender.
Of course it also has to do with social acceptance. It happened with being gay and transexuality and now into transgenderism.

Of course it also has to do with social acceptance. It happened with being gay and transexuality and now into transgenderism.

Now, however, being gay is less accepted than being trans. A large proportion of FtM transgenders are/were lesbian. They see this as a way to escape discrimination.

Societies with strict gender roles and stereotyping are happier with a woman claiming to be a man than her living as lesbian.

It has to do with social acceptance but the big difference is that transgenderism law impinges on women's rights.

I'm not so bothered about the use of toilets but more concerned about sport. I feel there should be limits on the size of MtF who compete in women's sport, imagine two transgendered women competing in Wimbledon. I can only imagine it's the mainly men who run sport who can't see that this disaffects women. Even after surgery mtF still have longer muscles and larger lung capacity. Obviously it is not such an issue for male sport where FtM are usually smaller.

They might have to take hormones to compete in the Olympics, although the testosterone levels are allowed to be much higher than the average women's, but in local sports clubs there will no restriction from a 6ft 15 stone man playing in a women's football or rugby team.

Everyone dismisses this as irrelevant, usually on the argument that there are so few transgendered people, but imv the law restricting who can join a woman's club/team, eg to say that the mtF in the team must be no more than 10% heavier/taller than the average woman, regardless. I'd rather it was the case that this is hardly worth making a law about but we should do it than to spoil the game for dozens of female-at-birth competitors.

May I ask, as an aside, if there are laws about disabled loos? Is it wrong to use these in the same way we shouldn't disabled parkings?

If businesses changed these to gender neutral loos as well, then that would allow everyone to use them, taking a resource away from disabled people.

Is this the sort of thing you're talking about, missmargie?

Most children of my children's acquaintance who are transitioning are 'female to male'

In my sons friendship group there are few 'straight' people, lots of bi sexual and asexual

Or this...

SmallLegs nail on head.

Transactivists aren't taking on male attitudes and male violence because that would be actually quite, you know, hard. Men really do have the power and the privilege and the entitlement and have had it for millennia; they're not pushovers.

Yes rufus that is borne out by the latest report from i think the tavistock clinic. A massive increase in the number of girls being referred. Previously it was far more likely to be mtf. Personally i am very sad about this. Womanhood is such an unattractive prospect, and being a non conforming often lesbian girl so unacceptable that more acceptance is found by transitioning. If it is just a question of name/pronoun changes, not such a big deal, and frankly who can blame them, but surgery and testosterone in particular i am v uneasy about. Noone knows the long term results of high dose trstosterone, and look how hard 'women' have to fight to be voluntarily sterilised,.yet transmen are given.this surgery when much younger. (Personally i see shades of the past - sterilising the mentally ill in this ease).

Rufus Bombardier Glosswitch has written very perceptively on the increase in young women wishing to identify out of womanhood:

glosswatch.com/2016/04/13/the-right-way-for-women-to-disappear/

I've noticed that when FtM are discussed in the media, it's fine to refer to them as female, as women and girls even. But not so with the coverage of MtF. I find this quite telling.

Also, has anyone else noticed this gem from the government report?

In the exemptions section relating to single sex/separate sex services etc, the very same transactivists who are arguing that all women only services and jobs should be open to transwomen with a GRC because transwomen are women, also try to make the case for some separate services for transwomen being open to transwomen only, because... They're different.

129. The Alliance also advocated the introduction of a legal provision allowing for certain posts, “perhaps where providing support specifically to trans people”, to be available only to trans people, “as exists for other protected characteristics”.

So...being trans is a protected characteristic, but being biologically female isn't.

Transwomen are the same as all other women when it works for them, but not when it doesn't.

Having their cake and eating it, much?

This was not put into the recommendations by the way; I think the committee just chose not to deal with it because to analyse and acknowledge that mindset would blow apart the whole bullshit facade.