Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Because it is full validation of their self chosen identity.

Even female wards in hospital are not 100% female staffed. Male visitors are also allowed. They are not locked in, so always vulnerable anyway.
Safeguarding should be in place for the vulnerable, but that should be beyond crude sex segregation. Sex segregation is a measure, but it still doesn't fully protect women or the vulnerable, certainly not from men entering premises under other pretexts. More refined measures should be in place.
And in relation to those who have particular triggers, they should be accommodated. I just don't necessarily agree that everyone will have the same triggers. Although, I suppose "men" could be the most common trigger or source of unease. I didn't see how lesbians victims of female abuse could be safeguarded.

I agree that broad sex segregation is fine where people are most vulnerable, such as where they go naked or sleep.

I pointed out that I didn't find most toilets with cubicles or shop changing rooms places of particular vulnerability. Not exactly the same as swimming pool changing rooms, although some degree of mixing (not in shower areas) is not necessarily more dangerous.
At least in most places that I have been to.

TBH, if going to deserted toilets, a man could be hiding without anyone realising, or could enter after we go in, or could be well disguised. Regardless of any laws, I'd avoid deserted toilets anyway. Even if female only.

I pointed out that such laws could become a big problem for women who identify as men. And that screening those women dressed as men entering female toilets would lead to more confusion and upset for them, as well as increased worries and eventually paranoia about safety and "men" entering toilets.
I think such laws are worse than the current state where, as other pps pointed out, people go to the toilets where they feel more comfortable.

I would welcome gender neutral spaces, as well as more private spaces where vulnerable people could feel safer.

And I agree that dealing with transgenderism requires more thought and consideration than only considering full post-op or considering anyone who claims to be transgender.
This takes to another discussion about gender. I don't like "gender", as it implies that there are male-only or female-only characteristics. I would actually challenge a biological man who claims to feel like a woman because he likes wearing dresses, for example. But society keeps telling us that that is what defines a woman. Perhaps we should address that at the same time as making laws about who can or can not enter public toilets.

I'm saddened but not surprised by the reaction on MN. Luckily MN is not the real world.

Lol. I'm a robot from the future sent to tell you're a nob.

Lewji you keep mentioning women who are victim a of female violence and I am sorry if you or any of your family or friends are such. There were indeed three recent cases where the perpetrators of crime, including violent crime, against girls or women were girls. So we do all know it happens BUT the facts speak for themselves, as just linked to, males account for most crime including violent crime and all but a tiny percentage of sexual crime.

Your attempts to insert women as perpetrators of crimes is indeed a straw man - or a straw woman. Women do not generally need protecting from violent and dangerous women. But from violent and dangerous men. A d since said men rarely announce their intentions society allows women and girls protection, and privacy, in a number of situations, fro. The ultra dangerous refuge, prison, hospital scenario to the basic humble toilet.

tea - I would really like an answer to the question I asked you twice on this thread already:

Gay men are also at risk of violence from men. Are you happy to support them to have access to female-only spaces, as well? If not, why not?

I have been spied on in shop changing rooms. I was trying on jeans, turned round and there was a man grinning at me through the gap in the curtain. It was pretty unpleasant tbh. I think they are absolutely places I would like to remain resolutely single sex.

Lewji I completely agree with you that we should challenge the idea that wearing a dress makes you a woman but it has gone way way beyond that. Now it is not what you wear that makes you 'a woman' it is who you think you are! We have gone from biology to what any one person thinks. For any other area of life this would be unthinkable!

I don't understand the "MN is not the real world" line.

MN offers a cross section of opinions, if not society. Those opinions often don't reflect the ones you hear in your own social circles but that doesn't make them less valid or less real.

Last night my friends parents said they intended to vote out of the EU. They are the first people I've come across in real life who are intending to do so. However, MN had already previously assured me that those with that intention are many.

"MN is not RL" = "You people are not like the ones in my little social bubble"

Wouldn't it be safer for a trans male to use female toilet. Trans Female use male toilet if she wanted to. There is a threat of sexual violence.

tea - I would also like an answer to my earlier question:

What do you feel is the difference between automatic right and self-declaration?

Ps Lewji it was not clear what I was referring to about you mentioning female violence, it was your mention of lesbians. I'm assuming you meant lesbians attacked by women, which is why I posted what I did.

Sorry if it was not clear.

I would imagine many lesbians could actually be victims of male violence too, and trans men victims of male violence. Which is why sex and gender neural, literally anyone can use, neutral single occupancy safe toilets would be my prefered option for trans men as well as trans women. But that is an issue for men born men continuing to live as men and trans men to sort out.

bumblebee trans women (biologically male presenting 'as women' do not want to use male toilets, that is we are having this debate. Do you mean the other way around?

Just talking of toilet practicalities (I know the argument is much bigger than just that) I work for a large international organisation occupying several buildings with many single occupancy unisex toilets, and I know they are unisex because they have a sign on the door saying 'we do not discriminate, these toilets are for everyone'. It is a disabled loo with that sign taken off the door and the other one added. Other than able bodied people using disabled facilities (that's for a whole other thread) why is this not the answer? I know I'm missing something but I don't understand.

DD's female friend was attacked by a group of girls in a female toilet and, ultimately, was saved by a man . She's not too impressed by the notion that keeping people with penises out of woman's loos makes them safe places.

Boogers - I pretty much said the same further up the thread. Such a simple solution isn't it? And no dangerous repercussions.

I think I have confused myself. I think trans women should be able to use the female toilets to protect themselves from sexual violence. I grew up with a trans woman my dad is not the strongest man in the world.

In my household we said transvestite.

I did think reading that article where it said parents what should you do if your child does not want to conform to social norms for their gender.....

Em don't force cultural ideas of gender on your kids. In fact tell them gender is a pile of made up bollocks which is why it can vary across cultures unlike male/female biological sex and intersex which is the same across all cultures on account of it being real.

Tell them they can dress and act how they want as long as they realise dressing like a cat doesn't make them a cat and that no matter what they do at present it is a lot easier to change your perspective on what gender means than it is to change your chromosonal make up.

They will always be a person.

Italiangreyhound
I mentioned women who suffered violence from women just to ask how does it work when the group that attacked you and could trigger a sense of insecurity is supposed to be the group where you feel safe.
If a woman victim of male violence would rather not be around men, how does it work for female victims of female violence? I don't know. Are they still ok around women?
And the same for gay men.

Boogers Why is this not the answer? - I think it is because MtF people want to identify as women and not unisex therefore they specifically want to use women's toilets.

StKildasNun even if they have a penis, testicles, a beard and wear a Greenwoods special?

(I'm thinking of Danielle there by the way!)

The only violent assaults I've suffered in my life have been at the hands of other females, although I've certainly had my fair share of groping and lewd comments from men. I don't personally feel particularly nervous of men, and when I was younger I was quite afraid of women but so naive that I thought men didn't pose a threat.

But crime statistics indicate to me that as a female I am actually safer in the presence of other women, regardless of what actually happened to me in the past.

Augusta Do you think your female DDs friend might feel differently if she was spied on in the loos by a masturbating man pretending to be trans so he could legally be in the girls loos?