Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Male violence is a thing. It's not something made up irrational phobia. It is backed up very comprehensively by stats across the globe.

With you there, Small

Has anyone researched the impact on women, do you know?

Oh I see, if women say they feel unsafe, you need research to check they're telling the truth, but if trans people say they feel unsafe, blind faith takes hold. Right.

I think the male violence stats speak for themselves, women shouldn't have to prove anything.

So, it seems very much that for some the argument goes a bit like this.

Women feeling afraid of people who have a male body = making a bit of a fuss, calm down dear, not all men are like that

Trans women feeling afraid of other people who have a male body = doesn't anyone care how vulnerable these people are?

Is that basically it then? Women, stop making a fuss, you're just being silly girls. Now, these male bodied people over here, they really could tell you a thing or two about feeling vulnerable.

Rhonda, no, I don't mean that I mistrust women's words, it's a genuine question.

As I said upthread, various countries have recently changed their gender recognition laws. It's not unreasonable to ask how those legal changes have impacted their societies. Maybe that research has been done, I just don't know. I'll have a look....

Well, not all men are violent, so let's stop worrying our pretty little heads about it, eh?

As a PP stated, if toilets/changing rooms are not an issue, then why the need for the change in law?

Treacle:

"Women feeling afraid of people who have a male body = making a bit of a fuss, calm down dear, not all men are like that

Trans women feeling afraid of other people who have a male body = doesn't anyone care how vulnerable these people are? "

I'm not saying that. But I accept that trans women are women, so my logic goes more like this:

Women afraid of men: well yes, you have a point. Male violence towards women is a sad reality.

Transwomen afraid of men: well yes, you have a point. Male violence towards transwomen is a sad reality.

I accept that this is a minority view on MN, though! :)

What kind of research on the impact on women are you after tea?

In one area it will be blatantly obvious as to the impact self declaration of gender will have and that is in the area of sport.

TW commit violent crime at the same rate as men.
i.e. when considering risk you should consider them as men. They pose the same level of risk as a man would, not as a woman would. Even if they are wearing a dress.

As these changes are very recent it will obviously take time for the full impact to be felt and researched, of course by then it's too late for all the women adversely affected by these changes, but never mind eh, they are just women.

But tea, no one wants to see trans women be the victims of male violence but their safety should not cost biological women their safety and well being.

The transactivists are not happy to have gender neutral spaces, which seems to me a good compromise. They are demanding to be able to enter women only safe spaces! This leaves women more at risk from those who would abuse the new laws.

Emotions, as I said earlier, it would be useful to know whether the rates of violence against women had gone up in the countries which have changed their gender recognition laws to a self-declarative model. If so, what proportion of the additional crimes were committed by those who had made use of the new laws to gain access to spaces previously off limits to them?

This isn't me being goady, it'd be a genuinely very useful piece of research in assessing the likely impact of any legislative changes the UK might bring in.

JoyFantastic
And yet we've been told on this thread that it is okay for transwomen to fear going into male toilets

I would imagine that transwomen primarily want to use the toilets that correspond with their identity.

But yes, I take your point that there are only a few years of data available. Still, if you took data from all the countries available (as mentioned earlier), it'd add up to a reasonable picture.

Paddypants: how would you feel about using gender neutral spaces, personally?

tea it seems unlikely that that sort of research would be possible because presumably once someone is legally recognised as a woman they will be recorded in crime statistics as a woman. Not as a woman who used to be a man. So all that will happen is that women will appear to be becoming more violent and then there will be Daily Mail style headlines bemoaning how awful modern women are and handwringing about how we can stem the tide of female violence.

tea

womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.wordpress.com/

Tea how can you ignore the fact that while you can claim "transwomen are women" til you're blue in the face, they have men's bodies and are far more able to protect themselves than women?

Thanks, Crayon. That relates to the UK, doesn't it? Not countries with self-declaratory processes already in place? (Btw you know that I'm a trans ally, right?)

Treacle - true. So maybe the best question to ask is whether the number of crimes committed by women has risen. That should be easy enough to research if someone had the time, data and inclination!

This is a link to the guidance currently being used by the UK government for service providers re trans customers:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484857/Providing_services_for_transgender_customers-a_guide.pdf

"Good Practice 2: Try not to assume someone’s gender simply by their
appearance ...
Good Practice 4: Assume everyone selects the facilities appropriate to their gender."

This means that for most cases, we already have a system of saying the words 'I'm a woman' gets you into the women's changing rooms.

As the women analysing policy on women link above points out, Maria Miller is trying to both change the criteria for a GRC from diagnosis of gender dysphoria and 'living as a woman' for 2 years, to self-declaration, and remove the exemption for single sex services.

Shins - this is quite good if you want to try and understand why so many people accept trans identities as a real thing: here

I accept that most of MN does not accept this analysis! :)

Yes it's for the UK. It's analysing the effects these laws would have on women in the UK.

Why do you ask if I know that you're a trans ally? I can tell that from your posts.

Crayon: just to be clear about where I'm coming from in this discussion, that's all. No great self-declaration (see what I did there?)

OK

I'm a feminist.

How would you be able to use any data to tell you anything?
I mean if trans women are just to be recorded as women, you wouldn't be able to differentiate between whether, (as a hypothetical example) female on female violence has increased because more women are being violent, more women feel able to report violence, or whether trans women are being disproportionately violent.

Unless I've massively misunderstood and in fact trans violence won't be recorded as 'female' violence.