Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

That first para of my most recent post goes to Cote too, who reacted similarly to WDNS.

"The vast majority of transwomen are instantly recognisable as male. Nobody needs to check their ID or genitals.
Are they? Really? How do you know without checking?"

I hope you are being deliberately obtuse, because the alternative (that you think nobody can tell when someone is an adult male under a bit of makeup and a dress) is too bizarre.

Why don't you go check Reddit's Transpassing page, for example, where trans people post their photos and ask how well they pass. The vast majority don't, not even in a photo taken at the most flattering angle and in the best light. Not even in a snapshot photo. Not even after years of HRT.

Even the rare transwomen who pass will raise your suspicions after a few seconds. The face, hands, Adam's apple, build, gait, voice - they all give clues as to whether an adult is male or female.

If nobody could recognise them, they would not need the law to say they can enter female spaces.

Cotton ceiling; I don't think that any adult is obliged to sleep with, or be attracted to, any other adult as a matter of politics or principle. Sexual attraction is a given IMO, just as sexual orientation is. I think that to guilt anyone into sleeping with anyone else, regardless of orientation or gender, is a form of sexual abuse. What do you think?

I fully agree

TW in middle aged men who suddenly announce they are women is common, in fact in the support group I'm in, it's the norm, not the exception.

Yes I believe TW is the route cause of my husband's violence.

I know I am not alone. These are men and their warped idea that suddenly aged 40+ they have become women turn them into violent men.

Narcissists, that's all they are.

Worcs, I never said it was all nurture.

" I still can't find any country which allows gender recognition law to enable someone to self-declare as an automatic right. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't found it yet in my extensive procrastination.......!"

Like this, you mean? You can't have "extensively procrastinated" if you it didn't lead you to find something that took me all of three seconds on Google:

On July 15th 2015, the Irish Government passed the Gender Recognition Act. Gender recognition legislation provides a process enabling trans people to achieve full legal recognition of their preferred gender and allows for the acquisition of a new birth certificate that reflects this change.

The Gender Recognition Act will allow all individuals over the age of 18 to self-declare their own gender identity. Young people aged 16-17 can also apply to be legally recognised, though the process is more onerous.

See here, too:

Posted on 15. July 2015 in Press

Transgender Europe welcomes today’s adoption of a progressive gender recognition law by the Irish Senate, ending a 22 year long saga for trans people’s recognition. After today’s third and final reading at the Senate, the Bill will now be sent to the Irish president for signing it into law.

Trans people over the age of 18 years will be able to self-declare their gender by way of a statutory declaration. Ireland will thus be the third country in Europe to introduce a procedure without any medical criteria being involved.

Something I am a bit confused about - my understanding was that while sex is binary, gender is not. How is this self - identification going to work for gender fluid folk who present as male or female depending on how they feel that day?

How about Denmark?

Unlike in most of the countries that allow new gender recognition, trans people in Denmark now do not even need a medical expert statement, but can simply self-determine.

How about someone, not being tried, but already in prison? Someone, say, who's been in prison for a considerable amount of time, stating that they've always felt like they were a woman, which is why they were angry and frustrated and that's how they ended up in prison.
I could probably imagine a few situations like that cropping up, especially if such situations were backed by law.

I looked at that Transpassing reddit page, it was interesting. How come the vast majority are male though, what's that about? I find it a bit worrying how young a lot of them are too - like 16 or 17 kind of young.

But we can't call Namechangey's ex 'supposedly transgender' - he declared himself, that's it. This is the bottom line. This is not about judgement calls or distinctions or unfortunately as Tea suggested about a group of professionals making a case by case assessment, this is about a one size fits all. The TW you encounter when you're vulnerable may be someone who thinks like, behaves like and quite possibly to all practical purposes is living as a woman despite being born male, the kind of TW we've been sharing toilets with for years without looking twice. Or the TW may be a man who enjoys thinking about his lesbian dick, is celebrating his testosterone and aggressive lesbianism, is anti women and predatory and about being in women's spaces because of it being a powerkick. The type of guy like the one linked to above who attacked a women, removing five of her teeth, for daring to question his presence. Pure male privilege being exerted.

The argument that NAMALT is fair enough but as has been said several times in the thread, asking women to be open minded about the fact they are giving up some of their few public protections against harrassment, assault and sexual violence because mostly it won't happen, with a kind of attitude of well if it happens to you that sucks but it's the price of inclusivity..... no, that's not ok. And I'm not ok with the Trans movement for not having the slightest comprehension of that, particularly the TW who insist they are women and therefore could be reasonably expected to have some concept of women's issues. Again please look at the thread in chat at the moment. In a quick, crude survey about 98% of women who participated have experienced harrassment/assault/sexual violence repeatedly in their lives and it is normal to live life in a way to minimise that risk.

It's also disingenous to mention professional roles such as opening the door to postmen - my postman is employed by a professional body, traceable, quite possibly police checked and carries ID to demonstrate this. Likewise male medical staff, police, taxi drivers - I don't hesitate with any of them. If I'm shopping at 9pm at night in Tesco and nip into the loo, and as I walk in the door I see a man is lurking there (I'm not particularly bothered if he's wearing a dress or not), am I going to go ahead and use the loo? Because if he assaults me the police will be asking me afterwards why I put myself in a risky situation (ie being in an isolated, enclosed space with an unknown male) and that will be questioned in court along with what I'm wearing as to how much responsibility I have to take for what that man chose to do to me. This is the reality of life for women in the UK right now.

Cote: Its not an automatic right in Ireland. I can't read the Danish law as it's in Danish and I don't speak Danish! I've linked already to the Irish Act if you're interested, and in case we do have any Danish speakers around, here's the Denmark one: here

What is the difference, in your learned opinion, between an automatic right and a self-declaration?

Feel free to point out the parts of the law which you feel support your view.

Transgender Europe (which I have linked to) seem to believe that it is an automatic right that just requires a declaration: "Trans people over the age of 18 years will be able to self-declare their gender by way of a statutory declaration. Ireland will thus be the third country in Europe to introduce a procedure without any medical criteria being involved" is what they say in the link I provided below.

So actually - what would be a good and useful piece of work for someone to do would be to research the impact of self-determinative / self-declaratory gender recognition laws on the wellbeing of women who live in the countries which have already passed such laws (eg Malta, Columbia, Denmark, Ireland). I think there are sensible grounds for saying that such data would give the the most accurate picture of whether the risks to women are significant. I would offer, but I'm still writing (this is how MN ends up becoming a full time job, donchaknow...)

Any other thoughts on the cotton ceiling? I offered mine earlier...........

Cote:

Automatic right = no one can question or deny.

Self declaration = I declare myself to be xyz............

Its interesting to see the Denmark one. A TM friend there is not experiencing that process at all and is being repeatedly assessed and has been strongly challenged by a therapist over a number of sessions ordered before being considered for hormone treatment. Which makes me wonder if self declaration creates the legal right but is not enough to qualify by itself for hormones/surgery and active transitioning.

The argument is that TWs feel vulnerable in male spaces. Presumably because men are more dangerous. So they don't want to be forced to share spaces where they feel vulnerable with a man - that is someone with a penis.

Me neither.

The problem here is male violence.

The other argument is when it comes to toilets, it really does not matter what kind of genitalia the person you share a toilet with has. In that case what is the objection of TWs to using the men's toilet. After all it doesn't matter.

Can't have it both ways but I guess some people don't like being told that.

I am for single unisex toilet cubicles. No one of any sex should feel unsafe in the toilet.

The problem of men being dangerous to women, to trans people and to other men needs addressing before people with male bodies get access to women's safe spaces.

So Rumbling, are you saying that self-declaration is not as easy / swift as it sounds? Surely most trans-sceptics (as on this thread) would be reassured by that? (Correct me if I'm wrong)

tea if you can self declare and be provided with a GRC and have all other paperwork and legal documentation changed to reflect your now self declared gender then you automatically have the right of access to the spaces/places of your self declared gender irrespective of how you actually present your newly declared gender. No medical intervention, appearance change, or physical change is necessary.

tea - re "Cote: Automatic right = no one can question or deny. Self declaration = I declare myself to be xyz."

Again - What seems to be the difference?

Nobody can question or deny the self-declaration. Otherwise it wouldn't be self-declaration and transgender community would not as overjoyed about it as they are now.

There is clear mention that this is a self-declaration that needs no input from the medical establishment. So who exactly do you think is charged to deny or question their self-declaration?

Yes, emotions, I get that. Has anyone researched the impact on women, do you know?

Tea women fought for male free spaces for a reason. Those reasons still exist.

Almond ah, I thought you did. Ok then!

I did point out my work that we could solve all our inequalities issues very simply.

Gender page gap - solved, just get a few highly paid male employees to identify as female and low paid female employees as male.

Minority issues no problem, just get someone to self identify as which ever minority we lack.

Looks like you might have discriminated against a disaabled employee. Don't have proper accessible workplace. No problem just get another employee to self identify as a wheelchair user and demonstrate that they have no issues accessing the workplace.

I self identify as someone who does not believe in gender as anythong more than a social construct and I am going to sue anyone who denies my right to refuse to recognise gender as an identity.

I am also entitled to a free bus pass as I self identify as being over 65.

I don't think it's fair to anyone to extrapolate fears to a whole class because of one bad experience

And yet we've been told on this thread that it is okay for transwomen to fear going into male toilets