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Original poster

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

999 replies

katmanwho · 28/04/2016 16:53

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"
OP posts:
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23
StKildasNun · 01/05/2016 16:21

Lweji said There are other areas where more thought needs to be given.

That is the prob imo - there is not thought being given because it is being put forward as rants from trans hating feminists against mixed sex toilets.

Ms Millar - ' the former Culture secretary said she was taken aback by the “extraordinary” hostility from a minority of women “purporting to be feminists”.'

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:21

More worried about the self declared or not bit though, eh?

No, not in the context that I mentioned.

Not for example for a doctor. I've seen male doctors for different things with no problems. Perhaps a concern for someone who may have a trauma with men in general.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2016 16:21

"Laws that are largely unenforceable (because nobody will be checking ids regularly or sexual organs) "

The vast majority of transwomen are instantly recognisable as male. Nobody needs to check their ID or genitals.

Millions of years of evolution has given us the ability to detect whether a stranger is male or female. Our female ancestors' lives have literally depended on this ability to recognise people's sex, even from a distance - from not only the shape of their bodies but also their faces, the way they walk, their proportions, their voices, etc.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2016 16:23

"I've seen male doctors for different things with no problems. Perhaps a concern for someone who may have a trauma with men in general."

Yes, we have all understood that you are alright Jack.

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:23

It just means that you need to open your eyes a little and read about the concerns of others.

Or maybe the others need to check if they really need to be concerned.

It's somewhat similar to perceived problems with immigration or supposed increased crime rates, even vaccines. Just because people perceive it as a problem or are concerned, it doesn't mean that there is one or actual reasons to be concerned.

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:23

I find your lack of empathy staggering to be honest Lweji
In fact, why should we support any victim by providing them with safe spaces? Why not say, I'm so sorry you've been through that, but honestly, you're being a bit unfair to others and really need to get over it

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:24

The vast majority of transwomen are instantly recognisable as male. Nobody needs to check their ID or genitals.

Are they? Really? How do you know without checking?

NameChangeyWangey · 01/05/2016 16:26

If a TW had been in the common room, say, of the refuge on the night I arrived, it would've made a traumatic experience even more so. Of course it would. Refuges have always been female-only for a very good reason. I don't get upset or frightened by TW now, but in the immediate aftermath of course I would have been. And if I were, say, having a smear and a TW was to perform it, I would be frightened. The thought is making me feel panicky and anxious even as I type.

Being raped, repeatedly, by a male 'lesbian' will do that to you.

Treeroot · 01/05/2016 16:26

Lweji, are you really saying that rape survivors concerns with having male bodied 'self declared' women in their safe spaces is 'a perceived problem'?

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:26

Or maybe the others need to check if they really need to be concerned

Nice bit of victim blaming there. Hmm

NameChangeyWangey · 01/05/2016 16:27

That was to Lweji by the way

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:28

WeDoNotSow

I'm not against safe spaces at all.

But a refuge can for example be used by lesbian victims of abuse. What is a safe place then?

I think what we call a safe place can be very different person to person. Simple exclusion of anyone with a penis does not equate immediately with a safe place. Women can also be violent and abusive. Including in refuges.

StKildasNun · 01/05/2016 16:29

The debate on immigration is ongoing isn't it? Don't I hear discussion about it most days in the news? Who in the UK is discussing transgender laws in the UK, what programme was it debated on recently.

The odd newspaper article but it ain't in mainstream news. It's shut down hence we are forced to go on about it here, with no resolve as no MP will debate it with us. Remember the WEP party leader's avoidance tactics on MN?

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:32

Women can also be violent and abusive. Including in refuges

By that logic let's not have refuges at all then, eh?
Straw man argument at its finest.
I'm not concerned with what 'women do too' or what 'not all men' or 'not all TWs' do either.

Just how the proposed changes in law that would allow men into women only spaces could be exploited by people to adversely affect women

teafuelledradical · 01/05/2016 16:33

I have be seriously procrastinating, reading gender recognition laws from around the world. I should be writing this afternoon (something that has nothing to do with trans identities!)

What's struck me is this: Malta is held up as the gold standard for gender recognition law, but even the legal process there is a public one, open to scrutiny and appeal, and quite frankly, is a bit of a faff. If you're a rapist male, are you honestly going to go through all the rigmarole of registering yourself as a woman so that you can rape? Surely what we've learnt from the feminist critique of rape prevention received wisdom is that rapist rape because they are rapists. Not 'rapists rape because this bit of legislation enables them to rape.' It'd be an interesting bit of extended procrastination to see whether the incidence of rape has increased in Malta since the introduction of the legislation, or indeed places like Columbia which have passed similar laws. I must get back to my writing, though.....

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 01/05/2016 16:35

Lesbians don't commit violence at the same rate as men, Lweji. They are also the same size as heterosexual women - they don't grow extra muscles when they start fancying other women.

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:38

Tea Sorry if you think I'm badgering you, but what are your views on the 'cotton ceiling'?

If you're a rapist male, are you honestly going to through all the rigmarole of registering yourself as a women so that you can rape

Well, if you're a convicted criminal, with no access to women, and going 'through the rigmarole' would mean being moved to a female prison that would then allow you that access, are seriously saying you can't see someone doing it? Seriously?

Treeroot · 01/05/2016 16:39

Lweji, If a traumatised victim of male violence is telling you that they need somewhere to go where they feel safe, somewhere without male bodied people, I really don't understand why you would want to argue with them by saying that not all male bodied people are going to hurt you and anyway, women might hurt you too.

Would you say face to face to a woman in a refuge that she had to share that space with a male bodied self declared woman? And if so, why?

NameChangeyWangey · 01/05/2016 16:39

a refuge can for example be used by lesbian victims of abuse

Yes. But women are not as physically strong as men. And lesbians (unlike my exH's version of lesbianism) do not have penises. There were lesbians in my refuge. I did not feel threatened by them. They were not 6ft tall and of a strong, masculine build. They were women, like me.

So do you think that TW who have had no surgery/hormones etc, or those who present as male complete with penises, should be allowed to live in women's refuges? Or the same should be allowed to carry out smears etc when a female doctor has been requested? Because that's what I'm hearing.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2016 16:39

"Or maybe the others need to check if they really need to be concerned."

Nearly half a century on this Earth as a female has shown me clear and undeniable examples of why I and every other woman needs to be concerned with the proposed compromise of our female-only spaces. I have been groped, assaulted, intimidated, lied to with intent to trick, pulled into dark rooms and alleys, and narrowly escaped on a number of occasions.

I seem to remember that you don't have a DD and I dare say that you would have a slightly different take on whether you need to be concerned about a hairy male with a functional penis in the communal changing rooms if you were raising a girl.

almondpudding · 01/05/2016 16:41

Rapists rape because they are rapists makes no sense and is not a feminist argument.

Men are not born rapists. Some men become rapists because a whole host of social constructions and conditions of the society they are in. That includes the laws of the country. It certainly includes attitudes society has to the rights of women and girls to autonomy.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2016 16:42

"If you're a rapist male, are you honestly going to through all the rigmarole of registering yourself as a women so that you can rape"

Would a rapist serving a long prison sentence with zero hope of seeing a woman for the foreseeable future go through a bit of trouble to get himself into a female prison, where women are locked inside with him and can't escape? Let me think about that for a minute... Hmm

Worcswoman · 01/05/2016 16:42

What Cote said.

Worcswoman · 01/05/2016 16:44

Almond that's not true. It's not all nurture.

teafuelledradical · 01/05/2016 16:46

WeDoNotSow: such a person wanting to self-declare as a woman in the process of being tried for crimes for which prison is a likely outcome would, I suggest, be exactly the kind of person for whom the public scrutiny and appeals of gender recognition law would come into play. I still can't find any country which allows gender recognition law to enable someone to self-declare as an automatic right. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't found it yet in my extensive procrastination.......!

Cotton ceiling; I don't think that any adult is obliged to sleep with, or be attracted to, any other adult as a matter of politics or principle. Sexual attraction is a given IMO, just as sexual orientation is. I think that to guilt anyone into sleeping with anyone else, regardless of orientation or gender, is a form of sexual abuse. What do you think?