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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

999 replies

katmanwho · 28/04/2016 16:53

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"
OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Lweji · 01/05/2016 15:49

Lweji what is your stance on care workers? A pp gave an example up thread of a female relative who requires help with personal care, and requests women due to previous assault.

What if the relative had been physically assaulted by a woman?
Or a black worker? Would most people be ok with requesting only white workers?

Surely specific cases would have to be handled sensitively based on specific needs. Not blank bans or allowances.

BombadierFritz · 01/05/2016 15:50

Sorry x posted
Yes tea, that is exactly what it means

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 15:50

Tea No it doesn't say that 'if it's a bit ropey' it won't count. AT ALL.

It says that if YOU find it a bit ropey then YOU are a transphobic bigot.

It says that men pretending to be trans will not be reported as male on female violence, but female on female violence, and if you dispute that as you think 'it's a bit ropey', then YOU are a transphobic bigot, because women commit violent crime too, dontcha know

Zaurak · 01/05/2016 15:51

Transwomen commit violence against women at exactly the same rate as men do.

That fact alone to me is enough.

Everyone deserves to be safe, but there has to be another way of doing it than shoving women under the bus, surely?

emotionsecho · 01/05/2016 15:51

tea - from Bombadier's post :

  1. Within the current Parliament, the Government must bring forward proposals
to update the Gender Recognition Act, in line with the principles of gender selfdeclaration that have been developed in other jurisdictions. In place of the present medicalised, quasi-judicial application process, an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers.

Note the 'centred on the wishes of the individual applicant rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers' so yes an individual will be able to just self declare their gender, can you really not see the issues and problems this will cause?

BombadierFritz · 01/05/2016 15:53

As an example, joanne latham wouldnt have been moved if they literally just said 'i am a woman' but if they had paid the govetnment say 200 quid and said it,yes they would from that point on 'be a woman'

teafuelledradical · 01/05/2016 15:53

One of the interesting features of this current review is that it explicitly says that it wants to review UK law in light of other places' laws. It doesn't name anywhere in particular, but Sweden is a good place to look to as their law was changed in 2012. It's all here if you're interested: here

It talks about a gender identity that is long term and widely recognised by the community, and is open to an appeals process. It's not 'say you're a woman, and you're a woman, no questions asked.'

I'll post a bit more in a minute.

Italiangreyhound · 01/05/2016 15:54

tabsicle you definitely do not need to now out but of you, before you do, why does feminists telling the truth about male violence make you feel sick but not understand why women want to defend safe or rather 'safer than nothing' spaces from males?

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 15:55

What if the relative had been physically assaulted by a woman?
Or a black worker?

Your game of 'what if' has utterly convinced me ALL women's only spaces are sexist, and must allow not only men pretending to be women in, but men as well.

BombadierFritz · 01/05/2016 15:56

I'm really sorry tea but that is what they are moving away from. It is a literal self declaration based on ireland i think

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 15:58

oh, fuck it, why do we bother to take preemptive action about any danger?
Why not 'just wait and see', because 'chances are'.......

Lweji · 01/05/2016 15:59

BTW, I agree that self-declaration poses a problem.

The middle ground (or trangenderism) do poses several problems and I don't think there are any great solutions at the moment.
Laws that are largely unenforceable (because nobody will be checking ids regularly or sexual organs) are not the answer.

What I don't agree on is that public toilets, and even less shop changing rooms, pose a particular risk. And a possible solution would be to make all mixed or more flexible.

teafuelledradical · 01/05/2016 15:59

It's not an automatic process in Ireland, Fritz. The Act can be read here: here

BombadierFritz · 01/05/2016 15:59

Pgs13 and 14 of the report

If you want it to be based on swedens model, write to your mp, like we are!

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:00

centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers

Not 'centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers' unless someone else finds it a bit ropey

teafuelledradical · 01/05/2016 16:02

Is there any country in the world in which you can get a gender recognition certificate as an automatic right? (Genuine question, I don't know the answer.)

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:03

BTW, I agree that self-declaration poses a problem

That is the entire issue, what does 'self-declaration' mean for the safety of women as a whole.

BombadierFritz · 01/05/2016 16:04

Yes i think it is more complicated if you are married if thats what you mean?

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:07

That is the entire issue, what does 'self-declaration' mean for the safety of women as a whole.

I thought the issue was:
Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

I don't see the presence of men in toilets, or shop changing rooms as problems, so don't see a problem with "self-declared" women or men in them.

There are other areas where more thought needs to be given.

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:08

Lweji Don't be obtuse, you know full well the conversation has moved on from the OP

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:13

Maybe in the very few last posts. Which is why I commented on self-declaration.

But the OP is very much still relevant as many are still so worried about men entering toilets (self declared or not) and have been throughout the thread.

NameChangeyWangey · 01/05/2016 16:13

My exH decided that, several years into our marriage, he identified as woman. He didn't want reassignment surgery, or hormones, or even to wear women's clothing (apart from underwear). He also did not want anyone at work, or his family, to know. But I was to call him by his female name at home and recognise him as a woman, and a lesbian.

Despite identifying as a lesbian, he raped me often. He was also physically violent toward me and others. Eventually I left in the middle of the night while he slept and I moved into a refuge.

Imagine, please (and this is to those who support TW being in safe women only spaces) what having a TW in the same refuge would have done to me. I am still receiving counselling, five years later, because of what happened to me. Imagine, in the immediate aftermath, me coming face to face with another TW. Please think about that. Try to understand that this is what you're advocating. It's not just about being fine with post-op TW using our loos. It is, ultimately, about men being in our safe places, like refuges. How can you think this is OK? How can you support such a thing?

My situation, I have found out since, is not uncommon. In fact, reading lifeisunjust's post here is what made me share my own experience. I'm so sorry this happened to you, life. I only wish that women who read posts like ours but support TW's 'right' to be in our safe spaces might think twice.

WeDoNotSow · 01/05/2016 16:17

But the OP is very much still relevant as many are still so worried about men entering toilets (self declared or not) and have been throughout the thread

More worried about the self declared or not bit though, eh?

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2016 16:17

"I don't see the presence of men in toilets, or shop changing rooms as problems, so don't see a problem with "self-declared" women or men in them"

That you don't see the problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It just means that you need to open your eyes a little and read about the concerns of others.

Lweji · 01/05/2016 16:19

NameChangeyWangey
I hear you, but, although attacked by my exH (although nowhere near as traumatic as for you), I wasn't afraid of men. Just of him.
I don't think it's fair to anyone to extrapolate fears to a whole class because of one bad experience. It could be sex, but it could also be race, hair colour, whatever.
Sure, there will be triggering things, but for example coming in contact with someone physically resembling your OH, would be worse than any TW in general. Unless you blamed his supposed transgenderism for what you suffered.