Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Lweji apparent men with vaginas? How would you tell?

Exactly!

According to the law, a transman (a woman dressed as a man, probably with a beard, but still with a vagina) will have to go to a female toilet.
How do people police it? She'll have to show her genitals to prove she has to be there.

Italian thanks, me too.

I dont think many of us are all that bothered about the 'susan's. The Maria Miller review is what many of us are very bothered about. Self declared gender = female prison/female rape crisis support group/female support worker/female changing rooms

Eating - that's what I've been saying all along! :)

WeDoNotSow: How will women be legally able to protect themselves from men who pretend to be trans to abuse women?

This is what the gov't review says on that matter: Significant concerns have been raised with us regarding the provisions of the Equality Act concerned with separate-sex and single-sex services and the genuine occupational requirement as these relate to trans people. These are sensitive areas, where there does need to be some limited ability to exercise discretion, if this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. However, we are not persuaded that this discretion should apply where a trans person has been recognised as of their acquired gender “for all legal purposes” under the Gender Recognition Act.

Unless you are not in the UK?

Tea How will women be legally able to protect themselves from men who pretend to be trans to abuse women?

You can't protect yourself from anyone intent on abuse.

You can punish people who abuse.

This also leads to women who may look like transwomen (for any reason) being abused, possibly forced to show their genitals to prove they can be in a female toilet.

"And this should be addressed with the companies that provide these services.
Anyone should have reasonable access and expectation to privacy."

My yoga studio is tiny. They don't have space for cubicles. This is the same for many gyms, pilates studios, yoga studios etc around the world. Not every establishment can afford massive changing rooms with multiple cubicles and completely isolated shower rooms with ensuite changing areas.

And why should they? So us women can escape the eyes of men you want to bring into our spaces?

There is an existing solution to that problem that already works - separate spaces to change & shower in. We don't mind changing in front of other females. We just don't want to do it with men around.

Lweji Indeed hence why I'm against legally changing one's gender. Because you can't. So id is all that's required.

That doesn't answer my question at all tea
That seems to be related to genuine trans people who are recognised as women 'for all legal purposes'

I'm asking specifically about men who would pretend to be trans in order to gain access to women.

Surely you don't agree that men pretending to be trans should be classed as women 'for all legal purposes' do you?

Treacle: the one reason that I am happy to support trans women in women's spaces is the vulnerability of trans women. If you doubt this vulnerability, have a look at the transviolence fact sheet I linked to earlier. If you respond by saying 'that's not my problem, I'm just concerned with violence against women', well, that's your prerogative as a human being. But I am not okay with that approach personally.

It's not that I am only concerned with violence against women, I would love to see a world where there is no violence against anyone, wouldn't most 'right thinking' people? But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in the real world, where women are vulnerable in comparison to men. Accommodating the safety of men who consider themselves to be women by guaranteeing them access to female only spaces, and enshrining that in law, leaves the door wide open for other men, predators, men with malicious intent towards women, to also access women only spaces. So the inevitable outcome is to compromise women's safety. I don't understand why that is ok. I don't understand why women's safety matters less.

Lweji So we just let a system which is blatantly open to exploitation carry on, and then punish after? Brilliant.
So why do trans people need to access female space exactly then? Why not just punish the men that attack them Lweji?

Transwomen are men. They can also be violent. I almost lost my life to a transwoman, my husband. I don't appreciate anyone highlighting violence against transwomen like it is something unique. Men are more violent than women. Transwomen are violent because they are men.

CoteDAzur

In smaller spaces, common sense tends to prevail. As those men changed in cubicles, if a man was already in the common room, so could women change in cubicles. Any abusive behaviour, by men or women, can be readily challenged.

But I still stand by adequate facilities being provided. There is a minimum that should be demanded to open. As for other issues.

The problem with that tea is the Gender Recognition Act is being changed to allow people to just unilaterally declare any gender they so desire on any given day of the week. There will be no requirement for any hormone treatment, reassignment surgery, etc., all anyone has to do is say "I am/I feel" and that's it no challenges allowed and hence the person linked to upthread who now calls himself Danielle.

Can you honestly say that you believe Danielle Muscato is a woman?

Lweji So we just let a system which is blatantly open to exploitation carry on, and then punish after?

Because that's how the justice system works?

We see male doctors all the time. If they abuse they are punished.
We can choose not to see male doctors, of course. But in most toilets for example, there is a cubicle door to protect our privacy too. Female toilets are not exactly communal.

Lweji what is your stance on care workers? A pp gave an example up thread of a female relative who requires help with personal care, and requests women due to previous assault.
Would you support her in choosing biological women only as her carers?

WeDoNotSow: exactly! What the gov't review is saying is that where trans identities are a bit ropey, the person claiming that identity won't automatically be protected under the Equality Act.

Treacle: I guess each one of us has to decide where to put our energies. Yes, women are vulnerable compared to men. I don't want to share my personal experiences, but I know that probably more than most. For me, it's precisely because I am well aware of my vulnerabilities as a woman that I am aware of others' vulnerabilities too.

Unless I've missed something screamingly obvious, I don't see that the gov't review is saying that anyone who claims to be a woman will instantly be accepted as one. If it does say that, could you quote, please?

Lweji - you're right, you can't stop anyone abusing anyone else. The most dangerous place for a woman to be is her own home. Can't really stop men entering those spaces, can we? Esp if the woman is married to the man....

"In smaller spaces, common sense tends to prevail."

Yes, which is why men and women have separate changing areas.

Lifeisunjust - i'm so sorry that you had such a horrific experience.

Exemptions in respect of trans people
21. Significant concerns have been raised with us regarding the provisions of the
Equality Act concerned with separate-sex and single-sex services and the genuine
occupational requirement as these relate to trans people. These are sensitive areas,
where there does need to be some limited ability to exercise discretion, if this is a
proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. However, we are not persuaded
that this discretion should apply where a trans person has been recognised as of
their acquired gender “for all legal purposes” under the Gender Recognition Act.
In many instances this is unlikely, in any case, to meet the proportionate test
Transgender Equality
dProviding proof

1. While we recognise the importance of the Gender Recognition Act as pioneering

legislation when it was passed, it is clear that the Act is now dated. The medicalised approach regarding mental-health diagnosis pathologises trans identities; as such, it runs contrary to the dignity and personal autonomy of applicants. (Paragraph 44)

1. Within the current Parliament, the Government must bring forward proposals

to update the Gender Recognition Act, in line with the principles of gender selfdeclaration that have been developed in other jurisdictions. In place of the present medicalised, quasi-judicial application process, an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers. (Paragraph 45)

"We can choose not to see male doctors, of course."

Not if you accept the line that transwomen are women. If this gets enshrined in law, it will be unlawful to refuse a male doctor who says "I identify as a woman".

Because that's how the justice systems works?

So the justice system works by ignoring massive loopholes in proposed laws by silencing critics?

Sounds like maybe people should be rallying against said justice system, and the aforementioned priposed laws then, doesn't it?

Not if you accept the line that transwomen are women.

Anyone should be able to refuse to see a doctor for any reason if they are not comfortable.

Fritz: do you think that 'an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant' means 'if you say you're a woman, you're a woman, no questions asked'?

Sorry for the cut/paste. Am having probs on phone
So, this report says

1. To get a GRC in future you should just be able to self declare. To be fair, you probably have to pay! If you read the report in full it is clearly opposed to medical/psych reports/'living as a woman' requirements

2 once you have a GRC you should be treated as your declared sex. End of. For everything. Prison/jobs that were previously for one sex only/changing rooms etc

"Anyone should be able to refuse to see a doctor for any reason if they are not comfortable"

Except when their discomfort is called bigotry and ignored.

You do realise that "should be" and "is" are different things, with only the latter pertaining to RL?