Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

Reading Mumsnet changed my mind (and the amazingly brave Germaine Greer).

I would help the trans community fight for seperate trans spaces.

Yeah, but the trans community want women to do all the donkey work for them.

OK. :-) Lots of people have changed their mind.

It's had the opposite effect on me. The only thing these debates ever does is make me feel sort of sick and giddy and feel really negative about humanity and feminism. But I have said my piece now, and shall bow out.

tea
You mentioned (via your link) joanne latham as a transgender woman
Are you really suggesting that this person, who had to be handcuffed to two nurses when meeting their lawyer and had attempted to kill several people was vulnerable to violence from men in a male prison and should have been housed in the female section for their physical safety?!?

Tea
I don't think anybody is saying that there shouldn't be safe spaces for trans people.
We're just saying those spaces shouldn't be womens spaces?

The question is not do you believe trans women are really women, the question is do you not think there are men out there who would exploit these laws for their own ends?
And should we knowingly allow them to, legally, purely out of goodwill to genuine trans people, even if doing so puts ourselves/mothers/sisters/daughters at risk?
Does it suit you better to say women must be legally protected from men pretending to be trans?

tea - You have every right to have your own opinion.

"the one reason that I am happy to support trans women in women's spaces is the vulnerability of trans women"

As I asked you before and you didn't answer: Gay men are also at risk of violence from men. Are you happy to support them to have access to female-only spaces, as well? If not, why not?

"I said it yesterday and I'll say it again: to me it's clear that women and trans women are at risk from violent men. We should be standing together, not fighting each other."

We would not be fighting if they did not embark on a zero-sum game where in order for them to win, women must lose.

"if you believe that trans women are women, though, which judging by the posters who have commented on this thread, most of you here don't"

It is not a question of "belief", but of biology. Transwomen are objectively not women because they do not fit dictionary definitions of 'female' and 'woman'. See below:

Woman: Adult human female.
Female: Of the sex that can bear young or make eggs.

Other definitions you might find useful:

Man: Adult human male.
Male: Of the sex that can make sperm.
Transwoman: Adult human male who "feels like" a woman.
Transman: Adult human female who "feels like" a man.

Or so you not believe there are men out there who would pretend to be trans to access to women?
Men who perhaps may have wanted to but wouldn't have actually done it before, because the law would not have been on their side then as if would be now?

Tea the very vulnerable Trans people you refer to absolutely need our support, I think we would all agree. But not at the expense of some very vulnerable women who also exist. We should be able to support both groups, in ways tailored to their unique requirements - side by side, it shouldn't have to be a choice. Unfortunately there powerful transactivist voices that appear to be shaping the way our laws are going who do not want to support both - they are actively seeking to remove rights from women. They have backed us in to a corner where we have to choose. If you choose to support the trans agenda (currently) then you are supporting the REMOVAL OF RIGHTS FROM WOMEN. It doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be either/or. But as it stands, it is.

There was a thread on MN abt a month ago, which discribed a situation where a transwoman teen (so, a teenager with a penis), was going on a school camp and was apparently going to share a dormitory wi some teenage girls.

The vibe of the thread (from what I saw) was opposite to this one - with many people saying the situation was just fine and that if the teenage girls felt uncomfortable, then it was a simple matter of them asking to be moved into a different dorm.

And I thought, what utter bollocks. Because if grown women are too intimidated (by the physical strength of th males in question, and/or by the thought of being labelled as bigots) to say they aren't comfortable with a penis-ed person performing their smear test, or staying in the room next to them in the DV shelter, then how can we fairly expect teenage girls to stand up for their right to sleep in a female only room at night?

I have daughters and sons. My son can't come into the women's change room at the swimming pool anymore because he is over 8 years of age. I feel he is vulnerable in the men's room alone, but I get it - he is not female, and so he can't be in the female change room anymore.

My oldest daughter is 12 and would feel deeply uncomfortable to have a 9 or 10 or 12 year old boy undressing next to her, much less an adult male.

Whether or not that adult male "feels female" is entirely irrelevant to the discomfort and vulnerability of my daughter should she find herself in that situation. I would advise her to leave the space immediately, not to stop and ask questions about the feelings of the male.

And here is a "non binary woman" (a man, same one from the "lesbian dick" one I posted previously) bullying an anti FGM campaigner for using the term "female" genital mutilation, because it's trans exclusionary

That transgender fact sheet doesn't appear to advocate any standing together with women against male violence. All the action points listed are focused on trans people.

Interesting that nobody has addressed my question in relation to how the law leaves female to male trans.

How are people addressing apparent men with vaginas walking in female only spaces, because they are breaking the law by entering male only spaces?

How to police either?

I dont want anyone to be put in danger in prisons. Better security in male prisons sounds a v good idea. Its just I dont see why men who idolise hitler and shipman and try to murder women should be able to access more women to abuse via the 'i'm a woman - get me out of here' option.

Adding my voice to those who have changed their mind after learning the reality of what the consequences of the planned changes (and this movement in general) mean for women.

I also have a to-the-bone appreciation of those who have publicly stood up for women's rights in the past and present, as I feel ashamed that I'm too scared of trans activists threatening me to even post this under my usual user name. But, I'm adding this (hopefully) anonymous voice anyway.

I truly want to live and let live, but am staggered at what's unfolding. I saw someone on one of these threads say it's like the emperors new clothes, and it is.

Cote has hit the nail on the head for me.

Trying to redefine the word 'woman' may be working now we're clearly living in laa laa land, but 'man' means able to produce sperm, so if you can produce sperm, you're a man, and don't belong in female spaces if you are planning on staying able to produce sperm.

"In most of those spaces I can have cubicles, should I need them, or don't exactly strip to more than my underwear"

Your "I'm alright Jack" attitude is frankly quite galling, and it does not prove anything except that you can't put yourself in others' shoes. There have been no cubicles to change into bathing suits or put clothes back on after a shower in any gym, yoga studio, or communal changing room of a swimming pool I have ever frequented. The few men who frequent my yoga studio have always had the decency to change in a separate toilet, without anyone asking them to.

I'm happy for you if you've always had a cubicle, but it really should not be so difficult to imagine the difficulty others would face while trying to get out of sweaty gym clothes (including sports bras) or wet swimming suits if there were men hanging out in their communal changing rooms. Not to mention showers.

lweji all i have noticed in the uk on this is that they get prosecuted for sex with women using prosthetics. Very harsh sentences as well.

Italian - a little anecdote: I know someone who worked closely with a woman (let's call her Susan) for three and a half years, kept in touch with her through professional contacts and circles for years after that, then found out over a decade later that Susan is, in fact, trans. This person has more than one university degree, and professional qualifications and is by no means stupid. I you saw Susan, you'd get it - you probably wouldn't question her femininity either.

Why the change in the law? It's a review, which is quite timely IMO - the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004, and understanding of trans issues has come a long way since then. Stonewall have admitted that they haven't always been great with the T bit of LGBT advocacy, and of course the Equality Act of 2010 has changed things legally; at the same time, the government has admitted that the laws designed to protect trans people haven't always been enforced very well in RL. The review first session is available to read if anyone's interested, here: here

It is 98 pages so you might just want to read the summary! It's also worth reading the outcomes and recommendations at the end, which speak clearly of the need for detailed, careful assessment of individuals and particular contexts; this review isn't intended to make impossible the use of discretion (eg in the case of offenders whose claim to a trans identity is a bit ropey). This cross-parliamentary group does accept the reality of trans identities though, and works from that acceptance as a starting point, so if you don't (as most posters here don't), then you'll find it a bit frustrating.

Lweji If men object to a FTM in their personal private space then that's a men's problem to deal with.

As said previously, it is not down to women to sort out men's problems.

Lweji apparent men with vaginas? How would you tell?

This begs the question what is a man? It's not a woman in trousers or with a beard.

It's not the Susan's of the world that worry me. In fact I could imagine the Susan's could share my concerns.

There have been no cubicles to change into bathing suits or put clothes back on after a shower in any gym, yoga studio, or communal changing room of a swimming pool I have ever frequented. The few men who frequent my yoga studio have always had the decency to change in a separate toilet, without anyone asking them to.

And this should be addressed with the companies that provide these services.
Anyone should have reasonable access and expectation to privacy.
I'm sure men aren't generally happy to get naked in front of women either, and I don't think it's fair that they have to change in toilets.

worcswoman I was quoting another poster.

I'be only met a few trans women in real life, to my knowledge and I totally notices.

Tea How will women be legally able to protect themselves from men who pretend to be trans to abuse women?