Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

I leave you this to think about tea
Please do also think about whether joanne latham should have been moved to the womens prison, in light of what you have read about them. What do you think? Is it enough to just change your name mid way through multiple life sentences and serve the rest of your sentence in a female prison?
www.opendemocracy.net/5050/julia-long/should-violence-against-women-in-uk-be-seen-as-hate-crime

Bombadier was just coming on to say hate crime against women is not recognised as hate crime. But it is still based on hate!

tea I hope you will come back but I totally understand you need to work.

Tea you do not need to reply to this but it is interesting that in spite of the fact you feel many people may agree with you in real life very few are willing to come and discuss! Even on a thread that was started with a support for trans people post.

If transwomen feel unsafe in toilets with men, then they should understand why we do too !

This.

Please don't forget to post relevant links later.

Tea just to say if my posts are coming across as badgering that is NOT my intention I have been badgered and bullied on threads in real life where identity is known. So please be assured I do not in any way want to make you feel uncomfortable I just want to encourage you to think. I am fairly sure I'be been approximately where you are before.

I think MN feels like a very hostile place if you don't agree with the general site line on trans issues, to the point that there doesn't seem much point discussing it.

I have posted on these threads in the past and they've only upset me and left me feeling really discouraged about the world. So now I mute, and move on. It doesn't surprise me at all that most women who agree with tea just don't post on MN. It would be like me posting about a woman's right to choose on an opus dei forum. It just feels like all that happens is people yell and no one changes their mind.

I know no one in real life who even vaguely supports these bathroom bills either.

Lewji if a man disguises himself as a professional and was found to be impersonating a doctor, he could be stopped. Under proposed changes to the law a man disguising himself as a woman would just say I am transgender.

I do trust some men. The only man in my bed is my husband. Were I sleeping with other men. They would be men I felt I could trust. This has NOTHING to do with being forced to share intimate spaces that are sex segregated with male bodies.

It just feels like all that happens is people yell and no one changes their mind.

I used to be on the opposite side of this debate.

I'm not desperate to share space with this dude either

tabsicle I expect if you showed your friends the male presenting "women" and "lesbians" including this charmer, they might start to see some of the problem.

I think part of the issue is what we consider to be intimate spaces.
For me it's my bed, the shower and toilet. I normally don't share them with women either.
Not public toilets with cubicles or shop changing rooms.

My point was that men intent on harming women will go to any lengths, including disguising themselves as women. It's something that it's difficult to control and unless men who dress as women were criminalised, then the whole thing about not allowing men dressed as women in toilets is just a useless exercise regarding safety.
It doesn't make sense to me to check if anyone who enters a public toilet has a penis or not.
The consequence of not allowing trangenders in any sex restricted facility is that transmen with vaginas will have to enter women's changing facilities. Should they show they are penisfree? How can you tell they are safe? Because by law they won't be legally able to enter men's facilities, or is that just for trans women?

Oh yes, I used to be a vocal trans ally. I like to think I still am, I just don't think women's rights should be trampled over to provide a tiny subset of men with more rights.

It is because of mumsnet that i found out about people like joanne latham. Previously i would have liked and shared those pro trans facebook type posts without really thinking about it
When i really thought about it though, i realised, no, this is not just about the social niceties (not misnaming) or trans discrimination (eg getting fired - this is never acceptable). I also recognised misogyny in its latest form. 'Women - shut up and know your place' rebranded. I discovered the true background of some high profile trans people (stephonknee/joanne latham)

I decided to step up and face down cries of 'bigot'

I only know one person in real life who is supportive of male bodied men who say they're women being able to access women's spaces. But to me the much bigger issue is that most women are blissfully unaware of the fact that their rights will be eroded if a law passes that allows a man to identify as a woman and have that recognised in law. Funnily enough a year ago I'd have been the poster on mumsnet saying 'I don't see the issue with doing away with male and female changing rooms/toilets as long as there are individual cubicles. Problem solved'.

And then I listened to other women's experiences, their fears, their discomfort and I took them on board. So I'd certainly say that I have changed my mind on that issue, so if someone has a good reasoned argument as to why male bodies accessing female spaces will in no way negatively affect women, then I'm very open to changing my mind. But I haven't seen a reason yet that has come anywhere close to convincing me.

"I think part of the issue is what we consider to be intimate spaces. For me it's my bed, the shower and toilet. I normally don't share them with women either."

Maybe it would help to think of spaces where you strip in front of other women - communal changing room of a swimming pool, gym, or yoga studio for example.

I'm another who has changed sides on this due to mumsnet.
It was the Olympics thing that swung it for me, I was very 'live and let live' before, but then I realised that women will actually lose out. When it comes down to it I'm more pro women than pro men who want to be women. Unfortunately you have to choose. I just didn't realise that before.

If it wasn't for mumsnet I would have believed that a trans woman was someone who had had surgery, who had taken hormones. I had no idea that having their penis surgically removed was actually unusual.

"all that happens is people yell and no one changes their mind."

Not true. Thanks to these threads, many many MNers have woken up to the consequences of legal changes in line with transactivist agenda, including yours truly.

Me too treacle. And to be accused of being a narrow minded bigot makes me realise just how misogynistic the new breed of trans activism is. I am SO open minded when it comes to sexuality, nudity, what people look like, whatever. I honestly couldn't care less. But I believe if a woman needs women only spaces in her life, whatever her reasons, she should be respected, no questions asked. Women in the world are oppressed and go through shot thanks to some men, the least I can do is support my fellow women. I can't believe the misogyny that comes from someone women in supporting men to trample these boundaries.

Mumsnet feminist chat made me think more deeply and changed my views.

I never realised any random bloke could declare themselves a woman for the day, with less prep than calling themself a Man United fan - not even buying the scarf

Being a lifelong sports enthusiast, I was horrified that womens' sports events could be won by biological males. Also scared at the potential for serious injuries in womens' boxing and MMA.

I was totally unaware of the online venom from trans activists towards feminists they call TERFs.
Threats of bombing, rape, knife attacks - behaving like angry violent men.
I've decided TERFs are on my side.

I am so grateful to the MN feminist posters and GG, that enlightened me.

facicili I don't know about UK. Most of the reports I have seen are from USA, Canada and Australia. They will come. I feel sure if we change the law. Does anyone else know?

So fucking sad.

tea if we really have been sharing women's spaces with trans women and not even noticed, why the sudden need to change the law?

No need to answer. There is no answer except Male entitlement!

Italian why do you assume we haven't noticed?

Of course there's an answer and 'Cait' winning woman of the year isn't it. Male entitlement? I think they have enough.

Italian, I know, it is interesting, isn't it? Maybe that says something about the effect that MN has in changing people's minds about the place of trans people in our society. I don't mind being in a minority, anyway, even if it turns out that it's just me that supports trans rights! I do know a fair bit about trans issues (and feminism too), I'm not an idiot who's been swept away with a liberal agenda. And I'm confident enough to know my own mind - even if that does put me in a minority of one!

Treacle: the one reason that I am happy to support trans women in women's spaces is the vulnerability of trans women. If you doubt this vulnerability, have a look at the transviolence fact sheet I linked to earlier. If you respond by saying 'that's not my problem, I'm just concerned with violence against women', well, that's your prerogative as a human being. But I am not okay with that approach personally.

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again: to me it's clear that women and trans women are at risk from violent men. We should be standing together, not fighting each other. This line of thinking only works if you believe that trans women are women, though, which judging by the posters who have commented on this thread, most of you here don't. I know I won't change anyone's mind though, so I'll remain a minority.

tabsicle do you think I am brave enough to say all thus and post true examples on Facebook? I am not. Debate is shut down.

If you can bring anything to this debate please do. Your identity is private here. In the real world it us so much easier now to be pro trans rights to 'be' a woman or whatever.

Maybe it would help to think of spaces where you strip in front of other women - communal changing room of a swimming pool, gym, or yoga studio for example.

In most of those spaces I can have cubicles, should I need them, or don't exactly strip to more than my underwear. Or are extensions of the showers.