Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

tea, how about you come back when you have got time?

I mean, we're all busy, not just you. In fact today is my birthday. But this is really important to me and it's frustrating that you keep "popping" in as if you're keeping half an eye on a stew that's cooking.

Sorry, I am not meaning to gaslight, genuinely. I am not trolling for lols, I'm honestly coming from a very different place on this issue to you. That might seem like a huge wind-up, but if so, it is not intentionally so. And yes, I did miss the massive list - sorry! MNing is not a full time job! :)

Boogers, this is the question that Ruthy asked. Is this the one you mean?

"Ok. Third and final time of asking:

Should Davina Ayrton, a paedophile rapist with a penis, have been granted his wish to be incarcerated in a women's prison, on the basis that he identified as a woman? Because under revised legislation, he would have been granted his wish.

So, under proposed revised legislation, man with functioning and intact penis is convicted of rape, self-identifies as a woman, goes to women's prison. Are the women in that prison at risk? Whose rights are more important here?"

My answer is as follows:

Qu. 1: Any particular case ought to be weighed carefully, IMO. In this case, I don't think that Davina Ayrton should have been placed in a women's prison. In all honesty - bearing in mind I don't work in the prison service and don't have much knowledge here (please don't shoot me for being honest!), I don't think there is an easy answer here, but then I don't think there's an easy answer of what to do with paedophiles generally. A transwomen's unit wouldn't be the answer in this case, IMO. I'm not sure that a men's prison is a great answer, either. Neither is solitary confinement... I find it genuinely very hard to think of a perfect answer here.

Qu. 2: Yes, women in prison are already at risk by very virtue of being in prison and the things that got them there. And yes, of course a convicted rapist heightens that risk.

Qu.3: Whose rights are more important: I guess, as in any scenario, whoever is most vulnerable.

The interesting thing here is that transgender activists don't seem to realise the inevitable consequences of these sorts of law changes.

What will happen is that biological males will start accompanying biological female family members into ladies toilets to protect them from male strangers.

Biological females will refuse to change or be treated on a ward where there are obvious transgender women. In some communities, male relatives will simply not accept female relatives being in such spaces with obvious trans women.

The outcome will not protect trans women. If anything, there will be more suspicion, more awkward atmospheres and more potential for violence.

Oh a nice detail i didnt previously notice. This paedophile rapist transwoman was only discovered to be a paedophile rapist ex man when his/her/their partner was 8 months pregnant by him/her/them. Poor bloody woman he/she/they were deceiving

Okay, I'll answer Italian's question: "can you see why most women don't want the sex category of female to be redefined to include anyone who says they feel female?"

Umm - sort of. It's not how I feel, and it's a bit of a crude way of describing something that is incredibly nuanced and goes very deep. If it is true that most women don't accept trans women as women then I'll accept that as a fact.

Rhonda: happy birthday! I'm sorry if my popping back and forth is winding you up. I'm actually working this afternoon so can't commit to this thread as a full-time occupation. The perils of online communication!

Seeing as there has to be a solution for prisoners like Davina Ayrton (unlike you, tea, sitting on the fence is not an option for the prison service), I would suggest segregation in a male prison.

Unless someone can suggest anything better.

It is a really hard one. If you have a quick read of this article, you'll see that two trans women killed themselves whilst in male prisons:

here

I guess the better answer might be: the prison service could employ specialist gender identity psychologists to assess offenders and make specialist recommendations for each one who is / claims to be trans.

tea

You haven't answered my question about what is your acceptable number of women and girls to be sexually assaulted, filmed etc as a result of men accessing previously sex segregated spaces.

And a new question - "Davina" has done nothing but grow his hair long and change his name to Davina - why would a male prison not be the right place for him to go?

Lewji you normally tall a lot of sense, what has happened today?

I'm still talking sense. I just happen to disagree in some aspects with many of you.

For example. Rapists have been known to disguise themselves as professionals that we'd normally trust. We don't stop answering doors to post men.
I understand why women who have been attacked my a man don't feel comfortable around other men, but if they had been attacked by a woman?
We don't segregate from the black community even where the crime rates are higher.

I have had experience of mixed changing rooms and toilets.
At work one toilet has very limited separation between men and women. I don't feel threatened at all.
I wouldn't want to shower naked next to a man. But I have been conditioned not to be naked in front of most men.
We allow young boys to be in changing rooms with men. They are also less capable of defending themselves.

By all this reasoning we'd never trust a man in our bed.

My answer is as follows:

Qu.1: Any particular case ought to be weighed carefully, IMO. In this case, I don't think that Davina Ayrton should have been placed in a women's prison

'Any particular case ought to be weighed carefully' - but that is the whole point of the argument - there will be no 'weighing carefully' of cases, the law will have been enacted, your views or anyone else's won't matter - the person will have the law on their side to go into a women's prison, and like the Norwegian gunman, have the right to demand their human rights.

Is joanne latham the incredibly dangerous sex offender and murderer who tried to kill their own female lawyer?

Hermione, your questions:

You haven't answered my question about what is your acceptable number of women and girls to be sexually assaulted, filmed etc as a result of men accessing previously sex segregated spaces.

My answer: 0 (obviously). Same number as acceptable number of attacks on trans women, funnily enough.

And a new question - "Davina" has done nothing but grow his hair long and change his name to Davina - why would a male prison not be the right place for him to go? - My answer: See my comment above re. gender identity psychologists - a proper assessment would be the best way of establishing the most appropriate course of action IMHO.

tea suicide rates in male prisons are shockingly high - do you have any evidence to suggest that rates of TW suicide in prison are higher than male prisoners or TE outside of prison?

Also, a bio male insisting on being put with women "or he'll kill himself" is blackmail. The three TW mentioned in the article you linked to had undertaken no physical transition at all - they had just grown hair/worse make up and changed their names.

Even when TW do undergo some physical transition they remain bigger and stronger than women.

A TW prison might be a solution for some, but Davina is a man convicted of rape and should be in a male prison.

Have a read about joanne tea

Is it enough to say the magic words 'i am a woman' and then be granted access to the womens prison?

I should add, all suicide is a tragedy. Suicide rates are growing for prisoners, for many reasons

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/deciding-which-jail-send-trans-prisoner-isn-t-always-clear-cut-and-accusations

So tea we have multiple examples of men dressed as women preying on women in women's spaces and your acceptable number of zero had been breached.

Where are your examples of TW being sexually assaulted by men in bathrooms etc?

Assuming there's an equally long list, why is the answer to make women less safe for the benefit of TW? Why isn't it to tackle male on male violence or provide a gender neutral space for TW?

Italiangreyhound
There have been Manu multiple cases of men identifying as trans a d or dresses in 'traditionally female' clothes attacking and raping, spying on and filming women. Not one incident. Many.

Is there any data on this for crimes committed in the UK?

Tea where is the nuance? Seriously. Biology is biology. A very tiny number of people are intersex. They don't want their needs mixed up with trans people's situations, or so I have read. Some men are born feeling thinking they are female, some present in such a way to really look quite feminine/very feminine after surgery and hormones and they choose to have penis fashioned into a vagina shape. They have my sympathy and concern and were I knowingly to meet one such person face to face I would absolutely treat them as another female. Whether I ever considered th as female I would need to see. But the reality is that soundness biologically female. And I think most wen who have thought about this critically would see this. Whether they felt able to Sat so, who knows. I'be silenced and bullied in threads where my identity is known. It's scary. It was done by women who think they are helping and as far as trans women go, the experience I had suggested there is either wilful dilusipn/lies or an ability to cut off from reality. To suggest (untruthfully) that men never dress as women or identify as trans woman and then attack women.

NONE of this means I have any ill will to trans women. I feel sorry actually their cause has been hijacked. Late transitioning males who are attracted to women are really, mostly, part of the group once called transvestites. Males wanting to sleep with women dressed as a woman is not being a lesbian! For some the dressing is highly sexualized.

I don't see the relevance of 'two trans prisoners have committed suicide whilst in men's prisons'. Prisoners as a whole have a high suicide rate. The answer is not forcing the most physically vulnerable set of prisoners to accept other prisoners who may possibly pose a danger to them, either a real danger or a hypothetical danger. The answer to the problem of suicide in prison is to have adequate staffing and adequate mental health treatment. But no, much easier to blame women for not wanting to share.

Sorry, too many questions all at once. I really can't keep up. That's not me being evasive or gaslighting, it's a fact.

And yes, Hermione, gender neutral spaces are probably a good idea. Although you could well have been sharing loos with transwomen for years and not even noticed...

I am going to just leave this here then log out of MN for a while so that I can get some work done. Like I said, I can't be on here too much while I'm supposed to be working!

transviolence

Soundness means they are not. Wen means women here. Say so not Sat so! Sorry phone is autocratting!

Also, if female prisoners were to threaten suicide you can almost be sure that they'd be viewed as hysterical and dramatic. Trans prisoner threatening suicide and it's all about how awfully distressed they must be.

I don't want to see any suicides in prison, a single suicide is a suicide too many. But the emotional blackmail being put on females to accommodate the feelings of people who are biologically male is scandalous.

I think that either we agree that some sort of segregation between men and women or we don't.

If we think that segregation between men and women (for dignity, for protection from male violence etc) is neccesary then we need to work out how to do this in a legal sense.

Either we can segregate on basis of sex which is easily defined and binary or we can segregate on the basis of.gender which (if it exists) is unquantifiable and non-binary and doesnt ameliorate the issue that MtF offend at the same rate as males, and have male build and strength.

The most shit part about 'hate violence' stats is that crimes against women just because they are women are not counted as 'hate violence'. Rape is not a hate crime in itself, for instance.

We used to have a reasonable practical solution to a practical problem:

if a transwoman makes a clear effort to appear female when entering womens' toilets or changing rooms, then most women would just ignore the masculine height & physique, bone structure, Adam's apple, hands etc

A (very) few genuinely did look like women.
If they still had a penis, they would ensure no woman was aware of it.
That's probably been going on without drama for as long as public toilets have existed.

The trouble starts when trans activists demand entry to womens' spaces as a right, regardless of whether any effort was made to "pass" as female.

If transwomen feel unsafe in toilets with men, then they should understand why we do too !
We campaigned for decades to have our safe spaces. We see in places still without these, e.g. like rural India, how unsafe life is then for women.
I think we'd all support safe unisex toilets in addition to womens' toilets, not instead of

Why criticise women for not giving up our safe spaces, rather than the men who make other spaces unsafe ?
It seems a typically masculine entitled point of view: take rights away from women to solve problems created by men

Yikes, this thread was designed to inflame people I reckon. Why do women have to fight to keep their personal space in the loo? It's like going back to get the women's vote again - it's crazy.
Women in women's loos, and men in the men's (that's the anatomical structure if anyone needs reminding).