Men as protectors

[SoftDriftedSnow]

Is it ever really true, except in their own minds?

A new study shows that marriage (or rather, the expectations of marriage) is detrimental to women. www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/04/22/wives-become-less-stressed-after-their-husbands-die-study-finds/

When you add in the rates of violence against women by men, why does this myth of men being protectors prevail?

And if it doesn't (not convinced) why is it still perceived by a significant proportion of people that women without a man are lacking? Maybe that's simply still function of perceived worth being determined by the man you get?

Rambling, but thinking. (and I am pretty much convinced the answer is "patriarchy", to nail my colours to the mast. And, yes, I know that many of you don't know men who think like that).

This is a question for the men - aren't you ashamed of your 'what can I do'? response? Doesn't it embarrass you that you can see what a shit world it is for all the women you love and yet you can't seem to dig down an inch to find any motivation or intelligence in yourself to do anything at all about it? Not one thing? Doesn't it make you look a bit...pointless...when you have to turn to women and ask them what to do - do you you expect women to be the target of violence and also to stop it, while you shrug?

Yes Buffy and also that if something happens to a man then it's important and must be stopped but if it happens almost exclusively to women then it's not really a problem. So, we must be very very careful about the tiny number of false accusations of rape that occur, because they affect men, but the thousands upon thousands of actual rapes that occur are not so important.

"Wasn't the basis of opposing making rape in marriage a crime not so much "I think it's just fine for men to rape their wives" but more "we won't be able to prosecute this successfully, because everyone will think the woman lied and she won't be able to prove she hasn't"?"

Hang on. Is it a good reason not to make something a crime because it would be hard to prosecute?? Surely it is as much about making a stand.

I've heard excuses from men about standing up to casual sexism: But what can we do? It's that generation of dinosaurs (ageism alert)! He's a good bloke really.

No. No. No.

Ah yes, the excuses. At all costs, men must not to be made to feel uncomfortable. Who cares if women are uncomfortable (and scared and upset)? They don't really matter. What really matters is that men aren't inconvenienced in any way.

Many many men accept the pecking order between them based on size, strength and willingness to resort to physical confrontation. They fail to see, let alone appreciate, the fear and distress of women, tacked on to the bottom of this hierarchy. And to them, the easy answer is for women to seek a higher-ranking protector (i.e. a man) just as men themselves do (smaller man joins group or attaches to higher-ranking man as sidekick). The idea of abolishing the pecking order doesn't occur.

There is so little real insight into "men" shown here - if I thought for a moment, you were genuinely looking for a proper solution, it would beggar belief.

Thanks for that input cadno, very useful.

On a par then

I think what you're wanting to say there is 'ner ner ner ner ner ner'. Though once you've done that, I'd be curious to hear your answers to my questions.

"What value are your good intentions to us?"

Exactly!

I thought there's plenty of insight into patriarchy here.

Don't see it if you don't want to. Go and do something else. There must be lots of stuff to do in RL. Go on.

You read our posts and think, I presume, 'but I don't think this way! I believe in equality, justice, I am not violent, these women don't understand me men at all'.

What value are your good intentions to us?

The value is that every man who thinks like this is one who does not do all the things you are discussing. And no, I don't want a medal for treating women with respect. Because I'm sure someone would like to mention it.

You seem to be equating discourse with some desperate need to be noticed. I don't want your attention (beyond an immediate discussion), or praise, or thanks. It is not your board. It is a public place for people to congregate and discuss a particular political set of values. If MN want to make it a feminist-only place, then I will respect that, but it isn't. Similarly, you started your own thread earlier for like-minded people to converse. I respect that too, and kept out. But I wish you would realise that FWR is not your personal fiefdom. You have been picked up on it in the past.

Ooo! Is FWR Buffy's personal fiefdom?

Are you saying all of us who are not Buffy who agree with her are her serf?

Who exactly are you trying to insult?

'The value is that every man who thinks like this is one who does not do all the things you are discussing. And no, I don't want a medal for treating women with respect. Because I'm sure someone would like to mention it.'

Why do you want any credit at all for not doing something?? I don't steal, I don't hit people, I don't throw rubbish out my car window, but I don't expect even the tiniest bit of recognition for those things, not from anyone, because I consider them to be so utterly basic as to be essential for any decent human being.

Equally you say you 'don't do the things we are discussing.' Well...em... bully for you. You're not violent. Why should we even give a shit?

Plus as I said earlier, the men who aren't violent but who don't do anything to stop the violent men or do anything about their violence are just as much a part of the problem. Your good intentions are worse than useless because you comfort yourself that you are a good guy and therefore above criticism when in fact it's you and millions like you who just let the others get away, literally, with murder.

Blimey, Grimarse's posting is tedious.

Are you saying all of us who are not Buffy who agree with her are her serf?

I'm not wearing a sack, even for Buffy.

You're not violent. Why should we even give a shit?

Exactly, why is there always the need for men to tell us that they aren't violent? Unless it's to acknowledge that their sex often is, and that in their non violence, they are in some way special. No, you're just behaving like a human being. Special would be doing something to stop other members of your sex from their violence.

Your good intentions are worse than useless because you comfort yourself that you are a good guy and therefore above criticism when in fact it's you and millions like you who just let the others get away, literally, with murder.

Quite.

Grimarse, when woman after woman tells you that the value you think you're contributing is not what you think it is (it has happened to you repeatedly today dude, take a fucking hint!), the more you don't listen, the more you brush it off, the more you continue to post your nonsense, all you are achieving is REINFORCING what feminists are saying. Much as you probably would like to think otherwise, you're not providing some sort of counterpoint to the consensus here - you're providing living examples of what we're talking about. Is this massive own goal what you want?

I hope you get bored of it soon, I really do. Or it sinks in that you can go on as much as you want but here is one place you can't shut women up.

I am not the typical FWR poster (although I have posted here on and off for several years).

However, when Grimarse pulled his "well actually I'm not a feminist schtick", my immediate response was to click on the x button, because I cannot be bothered with oh-so clever men and their oh so clever arguments.

That is the sort of impact you have Grimarse.

No FWR is not a safe space and yes people disagree.

However, to use a frequent comparison, there's a difference between going into the Doghouse section on MN and disagreeing about dog training, and going on every thread to say that owning dogs is pointless.