Men as protectors

[SoftDriftedSnow]

Is it ever really true, except in their own minds?

A new study shows that marriage (or rather, the expectations of marriage) is detrimental to women. www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/04/22/wives-become-less-stressed-after-their-husbands-die-study-finds/

When you add in the rates of violence against women by men, why does this myth of men being protectors prevail?

And if it doesn't (not convinced) why is it still perceived by a significant proportion of people that women without a man are lacking? Maybe that's simply still function of perceived worth being determined by the man you get?

Rambling, but thinking. (and I am pretty much convinced the answer is "patriarchy", to nail my colours to the mast. And, yes, I know that many of you don't know men who think like that).

(Would be interesting to know though if you thought it would apply as a general statement).

No, I don't think it applies as a general statement.
My feeling is it's quite widespread, but not universal. Would be interesting to find out given the theme of the thread.

The question in the OP is 'Men as protectors - Is it ever really true, except in their own minds?'

What is the OP actually asking? If she is asking whether some women see their partner as the one to go and check when there is a noise downstairs at 3 am - then obviously yes, some women do see men in this role. So sometimes, it is true in women's heads as well.

If she is asking whether women are better off without a male partner in their life (and I think she is ), then that is probably true too. All the stats I hear on here are that women are assaulted far more frequently by their partner than by a stranger. Ergo, women are better off alone.

I think there is a part of male biology that makes us more prevalent to violence than women. And that, unfortunately, is with us for the forseeable future. The logical conclusion is some forms of separatism, until we can sort this disposition out. It doesn't necessarily have to be enforced - women can and should make the decision to live happily without a male partner.

it's obvious they don't hold feminist views

When you say that, Buffy, what do you mean? Feminism is first and foremost a broad church, and it means different things to different people. Some self-identified feminists love this place, and some don't. And you don't have to be a feminist to hold/agree with some feminist views. So, for example, someone might agree with equal pay, equal parental leave and a woman's right to abortion. They might disagree with other aspects.

This thread is a good example of where you are more likely to get a cross-section of views, as it is specifically about non-feminists, i.e. men. Serious question - would you rather just have a feminist talking shop? Most of us don't get to meet feminists in real life, so people like me find it an interesting place to discuss aspects of it.

It might be interesting for you to study feminists in captivity, Grimarse, but I don't think whataboutery and challenging the basic tenets of feminism bring much to the discourse (not just from you, but from a number of other current posters). I don't honestly really much care what men think of my feminism. I don't need their approval or participation and I don't think I need to get anywhere near apologising for that either.

When I would rather be having a conversation about some aspect of feminist thought, it is wearying to have to wade through accusations of over-thinking, victimhood, wrongness etc etc to get to the meat of the matter at hand. I've opened and closed a dozen threads this week and thought "Oh, I can't be arsed" and closed them down without commenting, because they've already been derailed by what Buffy rightly identifies as ideas that don't belong in any strand of feminism she or I are familiar with.

It might be interesting for you to study feminists in captivity, Grimarse...

Honestly, how does twisting words in this manner help anyone?

Men's views on feminism is a side-show. We cannot be feminists, we cannot partake in it, nor should we. I have said that many times. I do think though that if no men posted on Fwr, you'd still be left with over 90% of the arguments. I dunno, maybe that would still be preferable.

How is that twisting your words?

Your words:

Serious question - would you rather just have a feminist talking shop? Most of us don't get to meet feminists in real life, so people like me find it an interesting place to discuss aspects of it.

Do you not SEE how dismissive you are? Feminist talking shop! Like we can't possibly be achieving anything chattering away amongst ourselves. And you're, what, helpfully broadening the debate for us? There are men who post here who I have absolutely no problem with, because when they say "men have no right to a role in feminism", they understand it, they mean it, and they post in ways that demonstrates that. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you don't come across that way.

I see you're also getting your grimarse handed to you on another thread

I'm sure you relish your role as the soi-disant voice of reason in feminism. Fight the good fight, brother.

I see you're also getting your grimarse handed to you on another thread

Brilliant.

So you have a thread here about men, about their attitudes and perceptions and an assumed role in society. And men, who are brought up differently, with different expectations, might see things in a different way. If the OP had said 'no male participants please' then I would not have taken part. But she didn't. Is that what she wanted? It seems odd in a thread discussing how men think.

Yeah, but her opening line is "Is it ever really true, except in their own minds", which I don't think is asking for men's opinions at all - the "really true" is the bit that isn't in "their own minds", isn't it?

Here's the big bit that you're missing: whatever women might be missing in the world, men's opinions ain't it.

Buffy, I agree completely with what you say. Thank you for saying it.

I am a bit put off by the constant nitpicking and whataboutery on here. And from a few non-feminist members who feel on some level that they need to either police what others say or discourage others from talking at all on here.

It is great to be able to talk about stuff that affects us as women. Share experiences even if some of us struggle to identify and articulate the reasons why we feel as we do. Liberating even.

I've only been posting for a few months on here. But I've noticed that the biggest male presence on mumsnet is on the FWR board. By far. Why is that do we think? Does it feed into this "Man As Protector" thing?

Well I cannot pretend that male violence does not exist. I cannot wish it away. It happens in every country, every society, every class and every level of income. It happens between siblings - as in those who share genes and environment still have different temperaments. And women cannot tell who is a good guy and who is an abuser.

Is it innate, socialised or a combination? It seems to be the great hope of feminism that it can be eradicated by social engineering. I see no evidence. Assault and abuse still occurs in even the most equal of societies. So if there is a methodology, I am all ears. Stopping men being violent and exploitative - it's a very easy thing to say.

There are some feminists - as in real women - who think this to be a valid solution. Are they taking the easy way out too? Would you be as dismissive to them?

"whatever women might be missing in the world, men's opinions ain't it."

YY.

So bloody true!

"There are some feminists - as in real women -..,."

Damn it! That's where we've gone wrong! Being imaginary.

One methodology would for men who aren't themselves violent to stand with women against men who are violent. Do you think that's possible Grimarse?

My husband is the family protector - that's how I view him. But that's just cause he's a bloke (although he does always have my back and I have him)

I view him more strongly as the hunter gatherer - he goes out and earns the money to feed / clothe / house the family. I stay at home as the best defender - keep the house running etc and defending it from all the junk mail haha!