How are we supposed to do ALL of this?

[cakestop2016]

Modern society is completely screwed up for modern women as far as I'm concerned. Why are we expected to go to work AND juggle all of the housework AND take care of the children's needs? Why haven't men caught up in assisting us? My DP is slowly learning that he needs to do more but why am I having to write him to-do lists, why can't he think for himself? Why does he fail to notice the greasy finger marks on the kitchen cupboards when he 'cleans' the kitchen?
why is it like this? Why does all the meal planning get left to me? I'm now seriously contemplating leaving DP and taking our DD with me because I can not live like this anymore.
what's the answer for modern women?

Does anyone really have to read a book about this?

By the looks of this thread and many many more on mumsnet. I unfortunately think the the answer is yes.

I think it's pretty sad for 2016

Wifework is an extremely common female experience that a lot of women (not all) sleep walk into.
If women had the financial capacity to leave a lot would.

"You chose to marry a man who's a twat I'm afraid. I wouldn't have. Too many women seem to settle for this behaviour."

In an ideal world then yes you could blame woman for marrying such a world but that's not the world we live in is it?

In the real world we are encouraged (to varying degrees) from a very young age to see housework as something that women do and that men aren't very good at. When you're choosing a partner sure you can be picky and put "willing to share housework" on your list of husband criteria along with "good kisser" and "gsoh". But you'd be waiting an awful long time for the perfect man!

When you've been taught that housework-loving men are few and far between then it's not surprising that many women are prepared to put up and shut up. It's just supply, demand and being realistic about your chances.

It is incredibly difficult to change 10yrs down the line with 3 kids and limited funds
The key there is limited funds.
A man's behaviour can change dramatically from when a woman has no kids and has a good job to when she is at home with three kids and limited funds. There are red flags but they are not always obvious. And most women won't dump a man at the start because he resists to some parts of housework, but "sees the light" and does it then.

I agree with PP...not all men are like this.

DP left me in bed until 9.48 this morning. I came down and made tea for us both and am lying on the sofa in my PJs. DP went to get dressed and brought a load of washing down with him and has put it on.

He's just gone into the kitchen and I can hear clearing up type noises.

I'll make breakfast now and he'll do last night's dishes. Yesterday we grocery shopped together (I mainly flounce and point and drive)...he pushes the trolley and carries all the bags.

And so on...and so on....

I made it my absolute mission to set up this dynamic from the off. It probably helps that I'm the breadwinner so I don't get any excuses about him working harder, contributing more financially, blah, blah. However I was very clear from dating onwards what my boundaries were around sharing chores and childcare.

"There are red flags but they are not always obvious. And most women won't dump a man at the start because he resists to some parts of housework, but "sees the light" and does it then."

But most women would (should?) aim to marry or end up in a LTR with someone kind I think? So even if the man they choose is a bit lazy and ends up trying to avoid pulling their weight then the obvious negative affect it's having on their partner should be enough to make him want to step up.

The fact that a lot of women don't have the self esteem to think they should wait for someone who treats them with fundamental decency is key here IMO.

People are missing the point.

Housework isn't valued because women do it.

DIY is valued because men do it.

PetShopGirl

It's not that straightforward because none of us are perfect and few women like housework anyway. It may not be easy to tell apart someone who is not keen on housework but will keep on doing it regardless because it's fair on both, or someone who is prepared to dump it all on his partner because suddenly she is dependent on him.
In the middle of the first years of the relationship, it may not be obvious. So, it's not always a simple case of "why did you marry a twat?"

When you've been taught that housework-loving men are few and far between then it's not surprising that many women are prepared to put up and shut up. It's just supply, demand and being realistic about your chances

Who said it's supply and demand? I didn't find finding a man capable of not being lazy/sexest that difficult.

In my previous long term relationship before dh. He also didn't have a problem with house work. Unfortunately he was a dick in other ways though. But I was young and so we argued a lot, it was an up and down relationship.

But I learnt a lot from it. Don't waste your time trying to change someone

Not all men will like my opinions and that means they might not like me. I give not one shit. Because I know there are plenty of men that do.

I've worked in pubs, from being a teenager and later as a frumpy mum. Lots of men were sexest arseholes (although i'm sure their girlfriends and wives wouldn't have thought so) and lots of men genuinely nice guys.

I would like to make it very clear (because I can see it may be going this way)

That women who can end up in abusive relationships, is completely different from what we are talking about. I know how hunky dory things can be at the beginning and the control and abuse can develope over time in subtle ways.

I would not say you chose a twat, your fault.
Because the two situations are poles apart.

There are plenty of decent men out there who will love and respect you.

I don't think it's all men
But I do know my husband is not quite the same as some friends husbands
Mine is VERY hands on & does 50% of everything
I think it depends on their upbringing and personality
I wouldn't have married a man that isn't like DH

Lweji....

I was brought up to never, ever be dependent on anyone. Man, woman, whatever.

So perhaps the key here really goes back to dependency and the fact that society still encourages women to be dependent on men in various ways (childcare seen as women's primary duty, women discouraged in various ways from entering highly paid arenas, made to feel guilty for continuing to work with children, etc)?

I would love there to be a public campaign to all parents to encourage us all to raise girls with decent expectations and boundaries and boys who know how to do things around the house and are respectful and feminists.

My DP was raised in a household where his Mother worked full time and is a very strong character and obviously this has shaped his views of how he should be in a relationship.

In fact his parents have checked with me a couple of times that he 'pulls his weight' and I know they'd be displeased with him if he ever took the view that chores and childcare were in any way 'my' domain.

I do all the cooking though (because I'm much better at it) so I leave him to do all the laundry.

I just don't put up with it. I've told DH that x, y and z needs to happen and if I have to nag I'm off. I'll leave him with the kids (ages 4 & 3 plus one on the way) and he can figure it out. I also told him that if he doesn't control his mother and her snarky comments about me making her son do housework I would stop all Skype calls between her and the kids. The witch has made comments in front of the kids. While they are young they pick things up very quickly. It's vital that DD and DS see mummy and daddy doing housework as a regular activity.

Oh and it wasn't always this way. Mn helped me sort out my home situation when DD, my first, was born.

stumblymonkey

I fully agree with you.

Having said that, for some couples it may be difficult to pay for childcare for more than one child. So, they would either have one child only or decide for one to stay at home.
Personally, I think I'd prefer to have a loss for a few years than to risk losing my financial independence, though.

Not sure I totally agree about DIY being valued solely because men do it, etc.

Looking at it objectively:

• DIY requires more skill and less people can actually do it = more valuable

• Housework doesn't really require much skill and everyone is able to do it = less valuable.

Just in the same way that men can learn to wipe down cupboards and figure out how the washing machine works; women can (and I believe should) learn how to do DIY. The Internet and YouTube videos mean this knowledge is no longer passed from father to son and is accessible to us.

For every man that is lazy about housework there are women who say 'they can't do DIY/they need a man to do XYZ for them' etc.

I think part of the problem is that women think men will miraculously change upon marriage or fatherhood and start being a different type of person. That very rarely actually happens.

My friend is married to a lazy sod, she despairs of him. But he was always a lazy sod. She really, really wanted to be married.

Society often sets women up to see marriage as an end game, and gives them no clue how to proceed once the prize is won.

I know I wouldn't have had a kid with a domestically incompetent man but I wasn't brought up to see marriage as a prize.

Lweji....I agree. Then we get on to the same topic though about society encouraging dependence. If more women were the breadwinners then more men would be the primary child carer and/or SAHDs.

Society often sets women up to see marriage as an end game, and gives them no clue how to proceed once the prize is won.

"They were married and lived happily ever after" always seems to mark the end of the story! It's as if you can have your adventures on the way to marriage, but once you're there, you have no more problems. Maybe that's about as realistic as a fairy godmother sending you out in glass shoes.

You don't get to demand that your partner takes an equal role in running the household AND still dictate the what, when and how of what gets done. How is that reasonable?

Example: you believe that the bathroom should be cleaned three times per week. Your partner believes that once per fortnight is ample. Why do you believe that your opinion is the only valid one?

Sounds like you're complaining about your partner behaving like a child while treating him like one. Maybe you could talk together like adults to reach a compromise? (Yes, that may mean not getting exactly what you want.)

I don't think it's down to society dictating that a sahm, rather than sahd, makes more financial sense. It's the attitude that goes with it.

An ex of mine was raised by his sahm who did nearly all the housework and a dad working long hours in a male dominated environment. And yet he and his siblings knew that it was because society was sexist, and their mum didn't have the earning capacity of their dad. And that she did most of the housework because she was home, but dad could and would do it when she was ill, or he was off work. And both gender dc grew up learning how to do housework and diy. None of them grew up thinking it was women's work, or that women shouldn't be equal in employment and society, despite their parents roles.

By contrast a woman could have an amazing career and her dp be a sahd/ low paid job, and be sending out the message women aren't equal. You can tell your dd she has an equal right to wear trousers to school, but if you then act the martyr about ironing them because Dh is lazy, it defeats the purpose. Ditto telling your dd she can and should be equal at stem subjects, then cleaning the bathroom because lazy dh won't. Telling your dd she can have marvel wallpaper, because it shouldn't be gender specific is a bit pointless if in the next breath you say 'daddy will have to do it for you cos mummy can't'.

These threads always go the same way, with the concensus being the woman brought it on herself by not sorting it out in the beginning.

20 years ago I was smug like this. We had a pretty equal split of work, housework and childcare, with 4 children. Even 10 years ago wasn't too bad, although I can see now that that's when the rot started to creep in . There was lots of "the boys were supposed to do the dishwasher" "the boys made the mess". And I believed it.

We had another baby, then we moved house. Suddenly there were no teens making a mess, yet it carried on. Realised he wasn't pulling his weight at all. Long story short I found I was doing every bloody thing and his spare time was spent watching TV, playing on the lap top. Discussions, rows, nothing changes. He agrees that actually he isn't being fair and things change briefly but they soon slide back. I asked him to leave; he refused. Stalemate.

He continues to act like a lodger and I get everything else. I'm not in a happy place, and if it wasn't for our 9 yo I'd have been long gone, but I don't see why I should leave and he doesn't see why he should. So it carries on.

So what do you suggest? I can't make him do it. I can't make him leave. Other people excuse him because "he's tired". "He's getting older". Guess what, so am I. It's worse because I know it wasn't always like this. (I'd never cleaned a toilet until I was 46!)

For me much of this issue of who does what in the house boils down to who takes it on board. I don't mind if it's me that does cooking and cleaning and DP who does DIY/the garden or whatever. My DP is great at doing stuff around the house but what he doesn't do, and what it seems to me many men don't do , is take on the running of it all equally. DP makes jokes about "helping " because he knows that it's his stuff too but essentially that is what he's doing, helping me. The juggle isn't in his head, he doesn't know what's happening day to day nor does he make any attempt to find out. He dies jobs to help but really he doesn't have it on board as part of his agenda and if he doesn't feel like it he opts out. I know very few men who actually really take a full equal part- it's 2 in fact.
This of course leads to allegations of control and who's setting the agenda, sometimes a legitimate question and sometimes a red herring.

Have you read the book?
No, but despite that it has never occurred to me that "wife work" should fall solely or disproportionately on me.

Or for that matter on me at all.