Is the trans lobby a force for good for XX women?

[PosieReturningParker]

I'll set out my stall for any new posters or visitors to this topic.

Transgender individuals, I'm sure, have a very tough time, suicide rates are high (although there's no conclusive reasons as to why, some are compounded with other mental health issues, some need validation, sometimes transition doesn't provide answers and so on, it's hugely complex). We owe it to the individuals and those close to them to find out why.

Bottom line transgender individuals deserve the same human rights and respect as all human beings.

The trans lobby does not represent most transgender people who want to live their lives in peace and happiness, without harm.

Here's some things to be aware of:

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.

There are numerous support groups for women whose husbands transition late in life due to a high rate of misogynistic mental/physical abuse once these men decide they want to be/are trans.

A transwoman without any surgery can compete as a woman at the olympics, there are already late transitioned trans in women's college teams in the USA.

At the moment in parliament a trans bill is about to go through that legally recognises transwomen as women, woman becomes meaningless. So diversity in companies that require women to be employed can employ a transwoman, refuge and rape crisis centres will have to accept transwomen. Transwomen will have access to all women's space.

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.

It's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school.

Now you know.

Feminists are routinely being silenced with accusations of bigotry or transphobia for asking that women only safe spaces remain for women only, obviously if transwomen are recognised legally as women there won't be any.

Are the trans lobby hell bent on erasing women?

you don't seem to like women very much, and hold us in contempt, glittery

Unfortunately, Glittery, they're influential twats. They're the ones politicians & the media listen to & the ones getting into influential positions. So until more of the reasonable transpeople step up & say "Not in our name", women will be fighting back against the visible threat.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?
I worked for 10 years as a pretty lone voice in Perinatal psychiatry trying to promote therapy and bonding over ECT and high dose medication as first line responses. Since then I have been a foster Carer of primarily sexually abused teenage girls, and with women who have 'personality disorders', trying to help them keep their babies. I work with women from refuges, some if whom have very complex needs. I am in touch with every one of those women long after I have stopped fostering their child, whatever the outcome has been, and many of them consider me a true friend, even though I may have been involved in them losing their children. My foster children have usually come to me as a last resort before going into residential or secure units. Many of them are now functioning well, with jobs or at college, and are having relationships. Some aren't, but whatever their story, I am still there for them, and they often reappear, be it for food, a hug or Christmas dinner.
I am truly bemused by what you say. I may not have read the books or thought deeply about the effect of allowing trans people in the Olymics but I do not hold anyone in contempt, I try to be a very caring and compassionate person.

I may have to change my username. I think I will have outed myself to anyone who knows me!

lol some of your best friends are women, right?

I think doing counts for a lot more than posting in mumsnet, so I will get back to it :)

Don't understand why Glittery is getting a hard time!

No nor me.

The you don't seem to like women very much, and hold us in contempt, glittery and lol some of your best friends are women, right? are completely unjustified. And actually a bit offensive.

"Of course being raped is worse than bitchiness - what s ridiculous statement. "

I think at least part of the problem may be that you are not reading posts properly.

I didn't say it is "worse". I said when we talk about "safe spaces", we don't mean "safe from bitchiness". We mean safe from grave physical harm such as being beaten into a pulp or raped.

I shouldn't have needed to say it, really, but you have brought up bitchiness as something that makes women's shelters not safe so I thought you needed the reminder.

"My olympics point was flippant. It's just that it's such a niche argument. "

It's not a niche. Again, fine if you don't care about it, but you can't decide for the rest of us that it doesn't matter if women's sport is run over by males with superior strength, stamina, height, and speed.

"Surely men who are so desperate to win would not be satisfied with winning a woman's race anyway?"

Sorry but you don't seem to have any idea about competitive sports. The idea in Olympics is to be the best in the world in one's field and get the medal that says so. It's not just winning some race. It's having your name forever remembered as the person who was the best in the field up to that given moment in time in the world's history.

"Trans people are struggling far more than women from what I see in real life. I just don't see that the war between some feminists and some trans people is helping anyone."

They have my sympathy and I fully support their right to be safe and live in whichever way they will find happiness.

But they are not female. That means they are not women. As such, feminism isn't about them. Transactivists' regrettably successful lobbying has left us at a point where it is doubtful if we will even be able to define women's issues in any meaningful way in the future, let alone do anything about them.

I wonder if FtM commit crime at the same rate as women....

Why are men are kept out of women's space?

Lanark. Are you drunk?

glittery

I think you've missed the point. Once trans women run in the Olympic team all trans children will be able to self identify in all sports teams, this will have a negative impact on girls.

Additionally no one thinks transwomen deserve vilification, but equally they are not women.

On one hand the new generation is saying women can be men and another acknowledging rape culture which is a male thing,

They've been duped by the patriarchy to embrace loads of shit that is bad for women.

To be honest I'd say this generation of teens and twenty somethings are pretty confused.

We could rename women who were born female.

So any suggestions? - evie/s, femma/s, girly/s (oh maybe not) but it seems a possibility to me. People would get used to it eventually, as when the word woman was used (in the future when the numbers of ftMs are larger) it would be assumed that transMtFs were included in that and eg in the reporting of crime figures or probably a lot of other instances, that could confuse the results. Then you would have M crime figures, MtF crime figures, F(or whatever initial is chosen) crime figures, anyone else.

People have, albeit slowly, accepted the use of Ms instead of Miss or Mrs. I think it's a possibility.

Let the trans be WOmen.

I was thinking about that, Hazy. If we gave "woman" to the TWs and biological women became something else - Liliths maybe? With Lilith-only spaces? How long would it be before the TWs didn't want to use "women" any more?

That's a 'no' from me.

"Woman" is a biological description based on physical reality. It means adult human female in the English language (see any dictionary).

It doesn't mean adult male who thinks he should be female.

All this is nothing but Newspeak. The vast majority of English speakers know exactly what the word 'woman' means and what it does not.

And anyway, even if women did call themselves something else, they would still be called bigots for excluding transwomen from the something else, because presumably transwomen would "identify as being the something else"

I think you are right. Transwomen would want to be treated the same way as the something else group.

But I don't think all women feel as strongly about this. Many would accept that including transwomen in the Olympics isn't a great idea. But a lot of women don't have a problem with a transwomen just getting on with her life and using standard female facilities (toliets etc).

But a lot of women don't have a problem with a transwomen just getting on with her life and using standard female facilities (toliets etc).

Which will be the case until men pretend to be trans-women in order to to assault, rape and murder women within safe, unmonitored spaces.

Rape, sexual assault and sexually motivated murder is a risky business for men. There is a high chance of getting caught, because either they have to commit offences in public places, or they have to find a way of legitimately or forcibly gaining access to victims in private spaces.

It stands to reason that if a man intent on harming a woman can gain legitimate and unchallenged access to women in safe private spaces by declaring themselves to be a woman, they will do so - it significantly reduces the risks they will face.

I agree that most women would probably go with 'live and let live' if the transwoman in question at least resembles a woman. Although having said that, I have seen women in a toilet quickly form into an organised gang at the sight of a 6-foot male in a dress and quickly showed them out the door. Maybe it was a crossdressing man or a transwoman. Funny enough, nobody seemed to think it important to ask if they "felt like a woman".

Which will be the case until men pretend to be trans-women in order to to assault, rape and murder women within safe, unmonitored spaces

Well it's unmonitored - so how is it safe?

It's safe (from crimes committed by men) because it's segregated. By unmonitored, I mean that it's not possible to put CCTV into women's safe spaces.

If this legislation is passed, I can see society returning to the days of having a "toilet attendant" who can act as a guardian -although of course, recruitment to those positions would need to be subject to the same safeguards as positions working with DCs.