Is the trans lobby a force for good for XX women?

[PosieReturningParker]

I'll set out my stall for any new posters or visitors to this topic.

Transgender individuals, I'm sure, have a very tough time, suicide rates are high (although there's no conclusive reasons as to why, some are compounded with other mental health issues, some need validation, sometimes transition doesn't provide answers and so on, it's hugely complex). We owe it to the individuals and those close to them to find out why.

Bottom line transgender individuals deserve the same human rights and respect as all human beings.

The trans lobby does not represent most transgender people who want to live their lives in peace and happiness, without harm.

Here's some things to be aware of:

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.

There are numerous support groups for women whose husbands transition late in life due to a high rate of misogynistic mental/physical abuse once these men decide they want to be/are trans.

A transwoman without any surgery can compete as a woman at the olympics, there are already late transitioned trans in women's college teams in the USA.

At the moment in parliament a trans bill is about to go through that legally recognises transwomen as women, woman becomes meaningless. So diversity in companies that require women to be employed can employ a transwoman, refuge and rape crisis centres will have to accept transwomen. Transwomen will have access to all women's space.

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.

It's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school.

Now you know.

Feminists are routinely being silenced with accusations of bigotry or transphobia for asking that women only safe spaces remain for women only, obviously if transwomen are recognised legally as women there won't be any.

Are the trans lobby hell bent on erasing women?

Yeah honestly dancingbear. I suffer from depression which is a mental illness. It's not a slur to say so. I also suffer from migraines which are a physical illness. Not shameful either.

Straw man and ad hominem in one go. classy

I have suffered from PTSD which is a mental illness. My dad is bipolar. Neither is a cause of shame. But acting as if transsexualism is a condition that can be treated is not cool. You're probably aware that the psychology community no longer treats it as a mental illness. There are still people trying to cure gay people aren't there?

As I say, I agree with much of the TERF attitude to transsexuality (based, mostly, on what I've read on this board - it's changed my mind). That will make me a bigot in perhaps a majority of people's eyes nowadays, but i'm happy to stick my neck out because those are my views. But the constant attempts to slur trans people as nutters and perverts is nasty, and unnecessary - the argument can be won without it.

vashta

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.
Entirely depends on the school, the children, the age etc. (Currently only 'gender reassignment' is protected by equality law by the way, meaning most trans children aren't covered anyway.)

Currently, the advice being given to schools by local authority equality teams are that primary and secondary schools should accommodate trans-DCs who have socially transitioned to use the sex-segregated facilities aligned with the sex they identify with.
If there are LAs giving different advice, they haven't published it.
The proposed changes to the equality act will make this enforceable.

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.
Depends again on circumstances. Many people believe in self-definition but doesn't apply in sport for example.

Proposed changes the the Equalities Act will make self-identified gender a protected characteristic. Those changes are currently being consulted on, and women are not represented as a stakeholder group.

No-one's said that except you Dancing.

I think that therapy, to help people come to terms with their own body rather than lopping bits off and putting on life-long medication is probably a wise move - and radically different from trying to 'cure' them.

I come at this as someone who is very overweight, has always been overweight, but the only person holding me back from being happy was me. Some soul-searching, getting to know myself, and grow up, and sure, I'm still overweight, but I don't hate myself or my body any more, I've accepted that it's not perfect, and never will be. I lost a good 10 years of life that I could have been living hiding myself away and being ashamed.

If someone had come and liposuctioned me to within an inch of my life, then I'd have been thin, the physical issue could have been corrected (sort of), but the source of the problem, the fact that I hadn't come to terms with myself would still be there, and likely I'd have found something else wrong with me to hate.

This is why the gallop to trans diagnosis, and then to hormones and surgery scares me witless - I think that HCPs have a responsibility to gate-keep medical resolutions that cause permanent damage, vs. helping someone come to accept themselves for who they are.

Plus of course, as a gender non-conforming woman, grateful to the women before me who made it acceptable for me to wear jeans and a hoodie, I think it's ridiculous that we're in 2016 and still men can't just wear what they want without making it about being a woman instead.

But the constant attempts to slur trans people as nutters and perverts is nasty, and unnecessary - the argument can be won without it.

It's easy to understand why though - when a person with a penis insists they identical to a person with a womb.

Some of the extreme trans-activists appear to be trying to educate society to forget the biological differences between people with XX chromosomes and people with XY.

If it's not a mental illness, then what is it? Stupidity? It's not ignorance - they know the differences exist, they are just insisting that everyone ignores them!

" But the constant attempts to slur trans people as nutters and perverts is nasty, and unnecessary - the argument can be won without it."

Agreed bear. The sneering tone that comes across on some posts is very off putting and plays right into the calls of transphobe.

nutters and perverts

It's quite shocking that you have used those words to be honest. Stating that body dysphoria is a psychological issue aka mental health issue is said with compassion and a desire for people suffering it to be supported to feel better. I believe that sex dysphoria is a psychological condition but I don't call people nutters.

Autogynephilia is a real condition. Again, perfectly fine and acceptable provided it is acknowledged as fetish and I would never use the word pervert in a derogatory way.

Acknowledging that trans genderism has characteristics of psychological disorder and sexual fetish in many people doesn't equate to calling them nutters and perverts

I have to say the only sneering and name calling I've seen on this thread has come from Mide7 and thedancingbear.

I'm still pondering comparing the idea of helping people with gender dysphoria to come to terms with their body to gay conversion therapy - they're nothing alike. Gay conversion therapy was trying to change who someone was attracted to in horrific ways. If you want a comparison, it's more like taking people who have been taught all their lives that being gay is wrong, and, through therapy, letting them come to terms with the idea that they are gay, and that's fine, it doesn't define them or what they do with their life.

ie. the exact opposite of conversion therapy.

Helping trans people come to terms with the biological reality of their body, and learning that that is fine, and that it doesn't define them, or what they do with their life.

Of course some people will still want to have cosmetic alterations, and, just like for anyone else, but I also think that like me, a lot of people just need a chance to learn to accept themselves rather than leap straight into drastic medical solutions.

I think that is what happens though Green. The people I know who have transitioned spent a long time in counselling discussing issues around gender, whether they could comfortably live in the body they were born in etc. It's really not a decision anyone takes lightly.

I know this was previously the case - I have two trans women among my acquaintance, and they did indeed take a lot of time, go through a lot of counseling, put a lot of thought into everything, and each has taken the steps they are comfortable taking.

But you read what's happening with young trans kids now - puberty blockers, mastectomies so young, 5 year olds being told their trans rather than just being allowed to explore what they like, the online encouragement to just start hormones, even without seeing a doctor, the idea that you wouldn't need to do even that, to make any effort or commitment, just say that you're trans and bingo, you can go where you like if the laws go through as written.

I remember how I was as a teenager. I wasn't equipped to make these kinds of decisions at all, I can't imagine teenagers now are any different.

From what I know about trans kids, it's a really long process for them too - if not longer. First stage is discussing gender and gender stereotypes etc, then if they are adamant you might let them change pronouns/name/clothes for a bit and see how it goes (making it clear they can always change back), then you might get on a waiting list for hormones. I've never heard of children having surgery, pretty sure you can't in this country anyway.
Totally agree there are risks with online communities, esp online purchase of hormones though.
I think this thread is confusing because some people are talking about what happens now and some about what potentially could happen if the law changes.

People who are anorexic also have body dysmorphia. We don't treat them by allowing them to have weight loss surgery or liposuction do we? I really can't see any reason why gender dysphoria should be treated so differently. There is no evidence that it is possible to be born in the wrong sex body or that there is such a thing as male and female brains.

I have a friend who works with kids with dysphoria, irreversible facial disfigurement is one of them. They treat this with counselling.

Watching I am Cait, tonight was very enlightening. The academic educating the activists. Caitlyn wasn't having any of it and stated no longer wants to date women.

Does she fuck want to date women. I strongly suspect Bruce was an autogynephilic straight man and lesbian now I guess. She is only interested in ratings for the TV show.

Obviously that should be does she fuck want to date men

I think this thread is confusing because some people are talking about what happens now and some about what potentially could happen if the law changes.

What is happening now is that parents of 4 year olds are choosing to socially transition their DCs, with no professional support or input, and sending them to school where the professionals have very little information and the advice they do get is to put the trans-DCs apparent "needs" ahead of the other DCs.

What is happening now is that Claire Darbyshire, who has a criminal record of sexually motivated offences using their penis, and who has lived as a recluse for several years with no contact with psychologists or professionals has been presented as a female to the public.

What is happening now is that Anna Lee, who has lived all but two years of their life as a man, and who has socially transitioned only to the extent of wearing women's clothing, has been given the opportunity to represent women on the national political stage by standing for election as the NUS women's officer, thereby preventing a person who has lifelong experience of being a woman from fulfilling the role.

What is happening now is that biological women, with XX chromosomes, are now competing with men, with XY chromosomes, and penises, in sport at an international level.

This isn't some Orwellian prediction of how the world might be. It's happening now. And I for one will no longer be silenced about it.

"I have suffered from PTSD which is a mental illness. My dad is bipolar. Neither is a cause of shame. But acting as if transsexualism is a condition that can be treated is not cool"

I think the correct term is disorder, not illness. As you say, you would expect an illness to be treated and get better.

No doubt the trans lobby will have it changed soon, but transgender is currently in WHO's list of mental disorders. I'm on phone now but you can easily links to it by searching for my name.

"But the constant attempts to slur trans people as nutters and perverts is nasty, and unnecessary"

I've been contributing on trans threads for a good few years and haven't come across anyone saying all trans people are nutters and perverts.

There certainly are crazies amount transactivists, threatening feminists with rape and violent death, and some indeed transition as part of a sexual fetish (I wouldn't use the term 'pervert'), openly declaring that they are aroused by the thought of having a female body.

That doesn't mean we believe all trans people are like that. There is a lot of love for Miranda Yardley on MN, for example, and a new transwoman MNer was recently welcomed with open arms.

Yes I remember that thread, too, where Ego said "I know I need professional help but can't afford a psychologist".

This is an example of primary schools learning about gender identity.

Hadn't heard of Miranda Yardley, specifically, so I thought I'd look her up.
Found this - which seems pertinent to the place the discussion is at currently:
ommadusk.tumblr.com/post/141090909872/does-grs-help-to-treat-gender-dysphoria
Very interesting.