Is the trans lobby a force for good for XX women?

[PosieReturningParker]

I'll set out my stall for any new posters or visitors to this topic.

Transgender individuals, I'm sure, have a very tough time, suicide rates are high (although there's no conclusive reasons as to why, some are compounded with other mental health issues, some need validation, sometimes transition doesn't provide answers and so on, it's hugely complex). We owe it to the individuals and those close to them to find out why.

Bottom line transgender individuals deserve the same human rights and respect as all human beings.

The trans lobby does not represent most transgender people who want to live their lives in peace and happiness, without harm.

Here's some things to be aware of:

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.

There are numerous support groups for women whose husbands transition late in life due to a high rate of misogynistic mental/physical abuse once these men decide they want to be/are trans.

A transwoman without any surgery can compete as a woman at the olympics, there are already late transitioned trans in women's college teams in the USA.

At the moment in parliament a trans bill is about to go through that legally recognises transwomen as women, woman becomes meaningless. So diversity in companies that require women to be employed can employ a transwoman, refuge and rape crisis centres will have to accept transwomen. Transwomen will have access to all women's space.

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.

It's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school.

Now you know.

Feminists are routinely being silenced with accusations of bigotry or transphobia for asking that women only safe spaces remain for women only, obviously if transwomen are recognised legally as women there won't be any.

Are the trans lobby hell bent on erasing women?

Lanark You really do have some serious "issues" that you need to work out, but perhaps not online!!

Pregnancy is not a gender role ffs. It's a biological process that is only possible for female humans.

What is this "0.02%" that you're talking about? Sorry, I've had a couple of glasses of wine so I can't follow what you're saying. Are you talking about "0.02%" because 0.02% of men in the UK have been convicted of a sexual crime? Because that doesn't mean that only 0.02% of men are sexual predators. There are lots of people out there that have committed violent and sexual crimes but haven't been convicted.
Also a lot of sexual intimidation by men is not "criminal" i.e. the male gaze and verbal harassment. If you include things like that, the percentage of men who behave inappropriately toward women is much, much higher. It's bad enough that we have to put up with it in the street. I don't want to have to deal with that toxic behaviour in a nightclub toilet.

Its true, eye contact from a man takes a tiny bit of your soul. Men often find that their eyes are like laser beams of hatred and abuse that they can't turn off. I think for lots of men its like being one of the x-men in a self-hating and minimising way.

Its very important to define looking at someone or considering them attractive as abuse, otherwise it's very difficult to say things like 'all men are abusers' . I am trying to get the word 'hi' defined as the expression of the male desire that women are drugged to the eyeballs so they can be sex slaves. This will allow me to put all the shops I go into and all the people I meet to be conscious or unconscious instruments of the rape economy.

Is your last post making fun of my concerns about the male gaze and verbal harassment (I find it difficult to understand your posts)?
Assuming that you are poking fun, please try to see the staring and the lewd comments from the point of view of someone who is 4'11" and you might begin to understand how intimidating it can be.
Eye contact is not something I worry about.

It was poking fun a little, I'm sorry. I do see what you mean, especially re nightclub toilets. I do think that two things are going on at the moment. The first being a demystification and familiarity with seeing women in lots of public spaces as instigators and joint owners, but simultaneously a growth in the acceptability of a sexualised 'gaze' even more so than one seeking a partner emotionally, as well as an idea that women are complicit in that gaze, which comes from internet porn, dating sites and the increasingly visual world of lots of social and other media, so I do get that.

The trans worry seems to be similar in that the sexualised gaze that might have excluded transwomen due to taboos, is becoming also acceptable, and though there is the similar argument that now (former) men are feeling it, its suddenly a greater emergency, its also obviously bringing concerns about how a transwoman has been socialised..ie as a man, added to which is a concern that not all transwomen are transwomen in the same way. Though I was acting the joker a bit, (also wine!) these worries do seem legtimate. I guess statistically with 'real' transwomen its a very unlikely area of threat, but it adds an avenue for illegitimate transwomen, or just men messing around.

Its confusing. I worked in a company that had a transvestite guy who would switch from women's clothes and makeup (yes think bad flowery dresses in the wrong size) and I can see he would feel odd in either bathroom on those days, and in some companies would get verbal abuse and harassment similar.to what you describe, but perhaps more directly aggressively threatening in the men's bathroom. I can't remember what he did, so it's a bit of a crap example.

Sorry for the fun poking. Once I had a mental image of all mens gazes being uncontrollably harassing, it was hard not to use that image... Perhaps I should make dark cartoons about these things instead!

Lanark2, even if people all gazed equally, male and female, try imagining that the people who are staring at you are all 6'4 gay rugby players (I'm assuming you're a man), who are known to get a big lary if you say no to them (note! This is fictional! I am not saying rugby players are bad people, just using them as a group that are larger than your average bloke). Can you see how meaningful stars, comments, and approaches would be a touch intimidating?

So take the mick all you like, but I'm not sure you're really understanding all the issues around it.

As an example, I saw a picture of a billboard with this quote on it:

"Walk like you have three men walking behind you." —Oscar de la Renta

every woman on the thread below took too takes to figure out what that quote was trying to mean, because ever one of us's first thought was 'what, faster?'

My daughter is active in a young LGBT group, and I have met a number of young people transitioning through it. Their stories are pretty heartbreaking, and most have been rejected by their birth families. They aren't interested in being Olympic athletes or making women uncomfortable. They just want to live their lives, despite living with daily abuse and hatred. As in all communities there will be bad people, but it doesn't mean we should vilify every trans person. The things mentioned in the OP are extremes, that aren't necessarily true ( the stuff about primary schools), and I couldn't give a stuff about the Olympic stuff - it's irrelevant to 99.99% I'm sure, and will probably be adjusted in time. The trans young people I know just want to be accepted, have somewhere to live and someone to love them, like most people.

If I meet a man in a safe female space i.e. where he should not be - is it statistically more likely that he is there to prey on women, or there because he is a transwoman? Or, is it most likely that he is niether and just there because, well.....why would he be there

From my experience it's usually a gay man (and no body cares).

Glittery - completely agree. It's so important we remember what a tough time most trans people (male & female) have to face in everyday life.

I think it's also a generational thing. Older people like me ( in my 40s) are used to gender being fixed and things like refuges and women's spaces are part of our identity. This simply isn't the case for younger people. My daughter for example described herself as gay/ bi, and got nothing but like on Facebook when she came out. She has recently started dating a f- t - m boy, so I asked her if she was straight now ( in a jokey and somewhat curious way). She replied that she considered herself 'queer' and I thought that was really interesting- sexuality is fluid and a lot less relevant to her generation ( she is 19).

Glittery there are also plenty of young women who think women only spaces are important. It's not about our identity it's about safety, privacy or being able to talk about women's issues without male interruption.

Glittery, I think the problem here is sex and gender being confused. Gender has come to mean a set of behaviours/dress etc. and I think most of us agree (no matter our age) that anyone should be able to do what they want, and dress how they want.

What I don't agree with is that sex can be changed. Women's refuges etc. are nothing to do with identity, and everything to do with sex. I don't go to a women's clinic because I feel like a woman, I go because I have a vagina, a uterus, a cervix and breasts ie. I am a woman.

I think that bringing sexuality into it is a total red herring - your sexuality has no affect on anyone else, you don't need other people to see you as gay for you to be attracted to women. Whereas trans people need me to accept them as a woman (or man) in order to be trans.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that gender dysphoria is not a good place to be, and I have every sympathy with those for whom life seems impossible with their body as it is (I really do - I've had plenty of body issues myself, although not to the extent of taking hormones or surgery - I reconsidered when I saw the side-effects).

But I'm trying to knock down the gender walls - to let people be themselves, and I think that a lot of trans people these days are re-enforcing a gender binary (for me, they declare themselves out of it - trampling on me to declare themselves above), rather than fighting to free themselves from it.

I get that two - I was 19 once, but now I'm older, I've had kids, I've been in the world being discriminated against and ignored, and my viewpoint changes. I think that's the difference between the young and the older - not that the older have stagnated with outdated thoughts, but that they've become jaded through live experience.

But surely a safe place is about being respected rather than whether you have a penis? I look at these threads sometimes and wonder how many of you have ever been in a women's refuge? I have been in several, as I'm a foster Carer and do lots of transitional care for women in refuges. They are safe because their abusers are not there, but the women in them are not always facilitators of safety - there are often women who make other women's lives very difficult through their drug/ alcohol issues or just general bitchiness ( I have had dealings with several women hounded out of refuges and on Facebook after leaving because of their race, some perceived slight or 'slaggishness'). I think to feel safe, we don't need women only spaces, but general acceptance and kindness. One of the price lives of being s foster Carer is that I have met many people shunned by society - child abusers. The reality of these men and women is that most do not deliberately harm, but have been abused themselves and often self medicate to the detriment of their children. It has really taught me to reevaluate how I judge people. I genuinely do not think most transsexual people ant to encroach on women's safety or identity. They just want to be at peace with themselves, and if that makes us uncomfortable we need to look within rather than blame them. I'm aware there are radical trans people too - who I often disagree with, but I think their viewpoints are often bought about by internal misery and experience rather than to belittle women burn by birth.

I'm in my 40s too and not jaded, just pragmatic. While I can appreciate it's tough facing daily struggles as a trans person, a small and vocal minority are alienating women with their demands to encroach on our space. And that sadly means my sympathies shift from trans people to all girls and women who will feel unsafe in formerly safe places.

I now think twice about my daughters going into toilets or changing rooms on their own. Why should their liberty be curtailed to make way for entitled males?

we don't need women only spaces, but general acceptance and kindness . Sadly that's not guaranteed. That's why I'm a pragmatist.

"I couldn't give a stuff about the Olympic stuff"

How wonderful for you. Many of us do care that women's records that are an inspiration and daily goal for so many girls and women in sports can (and no doubt eventually will) be completely out of reach for female sports professionals.

It's great that you care about your DD and her sexual partner, but that should not blind you to the plight of women in general. Trees vs the forest, and all that.

I think that whether they want to or not (and I agree, both transwomen I've known have been perfectly nice people), the problem is that they have been socialised as boys and men, they do have a tendency to dominate the conversation, and women do feel inhibited talking about women's issues in front of them for a multitude of reasons (not wanting to upset of offend, embarrassment, etc).

None of this is their fault, but I don't think it's necessarily incumbent on me to accept a man into a women's safe space no matter how they feel about themselves. Plenty of men are perfectly nice people, need help, have had bad experiences, but they are also excluded, this is no different.

And this inevitably leads on to the men (usually) who aren't dysphoric, but just see this as a way to gain access to vulnerable women and girls, or women and girls in a state of undress, and since these men are unknown to us, they don't wave flags, how can we tell which are the 'true' transwomen, and which ones are men pretending for their own reasons?

And to anyone who thinks men wouldn't bother, men have drilled holes, spent hours in attics and crawl-spaces, invented devices to take upskirt photos etc. Putting on a bit of makeup and some clothes from Per Una is nothing compared to the extend some men will go - and we will have no way to exclude them if a self-identification law goes through.

"But surely a safe place is about being respected rather than whether you have a penis?"

This debate is about female-only spaces which incidentally tend to be much safer for women.

They stop being "safe" in any meaningful sense of the term when any male who claims to feel like a woman can come in.

"in refuges. They are safe because their abusers are not there, but the women in them are not always facilitators of safety - there are often women who make other women's lives very difficult through their drug/ alcohol issues or just general bitchiness"

Seriously? I think bitchiness is very low on the list of things I would consider "not safe", while being beaten up or raped by a man adult human male would be at the top of the list.

Of course being raped is worse than bitchiness - what s ridiculous statement. But i have worked with very depressed women with no confidence after being in a violent relationship being hounded be other women from their refuge over perceived slights. Often these women have no-one else as they have moved away from all their support networks, and the trauma of this is often the last straw. My point is that safety doesn't come from being with women, but from supportive people.
My olympics point was flippant. It's just that it's such a niche argument. Surely men who are so desperate to win would not be satisfied with winning a woman's race anyway?

I used to work in an academic dept for Women's mental health. It was so far from being pro women it was a joke. It was much more pro the hierarchy of Medicine rather than better mental health experiences for women ( I was stopped from doing a study on PTSD after childbirth for example, because the obstetricians were twitchy about the criticism of their practice, also, we would never get funding for women's needs, we always had to focus on the benefits to their children etc). I do get misogyny and discrimination. But I don't think trans issues are the main thing. Trans people are struggling far more than women from what I see in real life. I just don't see that the war between some feminists and some trans people is helping anyone.

is this thread, and ones like it how you envisage a safe space for women? Because it feels like it's only safe if you subscribe to one viewpoint.

Truly women are the real misogynists

I am going to defect and leave womanhood to transwomen who are clearly better at/more deserving of it

I agree that most trans people simply want to get on with their lives in peace, Glittery.

The thing is, almost every woman on this thread would have been happy to welcome transwomen into their spaces at one point. Some of us have trans friends - I do - and Miranda Yardley, for instance, is always welcomed here.

But the transactivist movement are abusing our hospitality and taking it all too far. We seem expected to just accept that "transwomen are women" with no regard for our concerns. That's not fair and that's why most transwomen are getting caught in the backlash. Anyone who tells me I'm transphobic for being only sexually attracted to biological women can fuck the fuck off, frankly, and that's what we're being told on Twitter. Whether it represents trans views as a whole or not, it screams male entitlement.

Or maybe Twitter is just full of twats?

Crappymummy I am confused??