Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

Could eat a lamb that identified as a carrot though.

These people don't like women. Or rather, they like the ones that toe the line and behave. The ones who don't get threatened, silenced and marginalised.

They'd be far more welcome to women if they didn't act so much like men and display such staggering male privilege.

Does identifying as a cat mean I can pick and choose the bits I like the look of, like sleeping on the sofa all day when DH is at work all day & the kids are at school, but not having to eat Whiskas or let the vet put a thermometer up my bum? If so, count me in. Or is that my human privelege talking?

(You know, like not being allowed to join a men-only golf club if you've transitioned to being a woman? )

ROM I think you might find a thermometer in your anus wonderfully validating

NUS seem happy with ageism and using age as an insult

True.

Our inequality is entirely routes in our biology. That's it, nothing else. Because we are smaller, weaker and because of our reproductive capacity. Women's biology is EVERYTHING. There is NO WAY to be a woman except in the biological sense.

Could eat a lamb that identified as a carrot though.

I hope the transnonsense will stop at vegetables. I mean, when they start serving beef that identifies as broccoli at vegetarian restaurants, I will start a revolution. This is inacceptable.

(And I fear they might. I mean, they already ask lesbian to insert things into their bodies which are directly excluded by lesbianism, so how long will vegetarians be safe? When will vegetarians be asked to validate trans-vegetables by eating them?)

I have to attend to domestic chores, but if someone is minded, it would be good to know what on Anna's manifesto is not a biology based issue. Just out of interest.

Tampon tax - menstruation
Student parents - despite developments here, this often means student mothers
Abortion - biologically based issue
Male domination - historically biologically based issue
Etc

If there was no biological difference, there would be historically no oppression or no sexism today. Note: the word is sexism, not genderism.

Trying to pretend biological difference does not exist is NOT the same as arguing that biologocal difference should prescribe social roles or define existence or limit choice.

What being a woman to me is a combination of:

1. my female biology eg childbirth
2. My socialisation from babyhood by a patriarchal society internalising certain characteriatics in me so I think and act a certain way eg a tendency to be the one doing the mental wifework in a relationship
3. Discriminatory experiences as a result of a patriarchal society perceiving me to be female eg the experience and fear of sexual assaults and harrassment.

The rest is my personality.

grimbletart, you jest, but someone's already got the trans-feline pointy ears & tail

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12127067/woman-says-she-is-a-cat-trapped-in-the-wrong-body.html

Yes the oppression of women by men is based on biology. What else would it be based on...? Asking any queer people who might be reading this.

I've noticed the belief that women who question trans activism/lady brain stuff are old. And that old means being outdated and wrong. That's blatantly ageist. There are also young women who disagree, I'm still quite young.
Older means more life experience. Dislike of old women - at least the ones with opinions - is a common patriarchal thing.

Nearly every aspect of being an actual woman involves being defined by other people according to your biological status. We get judged, degraded, criticised, paid less and assaulted every single day just for being biologically female. Men get judged on their biological status too, all the time, every single day.

So for some eejit to rock up and DEMAND to be defined by his own wishful thinking, rather than his biology, well that seems unreasonable to me. It's like jumping the queue on all the other humans.

If women have to be defined (and often treated worse) because of what they were born with, then men should have to be defined by that too, even if they want to pretend they are women.

or it isn't bloody fair, is it.

I'm switching between feeling really really sorry for the young 4th wave women and girls and just feeling angry (not with them). When I was that age I was so busy trying to be right-on and groovy, I'd have supported a bunch of trans-turnips (or indeed trans-carrots) if I'd thought it would reduce oppression and stick it to 'The Man'.

I have always identified as feminist but it was only after having children and being in an abusive relationship that my eyes really opened to quite how widespread and deep rooted misogyny is in our world. It took years of living in the world as an adult to gradually learn quite how the power structures work. These young women, bright and intelligent and valuable though they are, are really missing this stuff because they simply haven't had the life experience to really feel it. Any of them reading this will doubtless write me off as a hideously patronising oldie, but I believe it's true. Some things you can only learn by living through them.

I don't think these young feminists have any idea how much power and voice they stand to lose. And the tragedy is that the majority of trans people don't really support this stuff either. This is the work of a very very small minority who have moved into positions of relative power within the media and web and so have a very loud voice and influence. The idea that no trans people can be misogynists, because the majority aren't, is hopelessly naive.

Wasn't it girls aloud who sang "you can't escape my biology!"... I think we need to adopt this as our theme tune!
I do think that Lee is seeking validation as a woman by seeking this position, if Lee wanted to achieve these aims from the "annafesto" Lee would stand as an LBTQ officer.
I hope that our young student friend 4thwave will return to our discussion, I welcome her engagement with us on these topics.

I hope that our young student friend 4thwave will return to our discussion, I welcome her engagement with us on these topics.

Agreed.

Wasn't it girls aloud who sang "you can't escape my biology!"..

Aye, the vile terfs.

I hope 4th wave comes back, if she does I would like to ask her this-
4th, in your last post you said something along the lines of that you wouldn't want Anna to stand -if she was male, but she isn't, she is a woman- . So what in your mind makes that statement the truth, the dress Anna is wearing? The fact Anna says she is a woman? So any man could sit down with you and say "I am a woman" and you would believe that to be true, and think that he should be able to use women only spaces, set up to protect women, and women only schemes, set up to protect women and girls, and women only sports set up to allow for the physical differences between men and women? Is that what you think?
Also your idea that no man would identify as trans in order to erode the rights of women, because being trans is so hard, is so naive that it makes me want to bang my head on the table. Possibly if all men who identify as trans had surgery that would be a slightly more valid argument, but the whole issue here is that it has instead become something that a man can put on a take off at will. Like a dress. Exactly like a dress..

So many great contributions here. I find it interesting how I've shifted my opinions on this as my experience of sexism has broadened. I remember back in the 90s Germaine Greer objecting to a trans fellow of Newnham college, because they weren't a woman. At the time I dismissed her as a bigot, with all the high-minded unreflective sanctimony that only a young student could muster. Now, well... I guess having three kids, several miscarriages, 6 years of breastfeeding and a career up shit creek has made me a bit more alive to how shaped my life has been by biology.

The writer of the guardian article has written this tweet, her assumption that the comments were so hateful to be deleted is so frustrating! If the comments were left it would look more obvious that people aren't being hateful, they are just making well-reasoned arguments. By deleting the comments they have backed up the story that Lee has been hatefully attacked. One could even guess that that is exactly how the guardian wants it to look...

jamin of course. That's what they want - they can't let the evidence to the contrary stand!

I also think transactivists and their allies get a bit muddled on intersectionality. Some transwomen will get discriminated against because they are perceived to be female and some will absolutely face oppression because they are trans. Transwomen may at differing times face both. I imagine transmen face similar issues and may much more frequently face both at the same time. However, transwomen do still retain male privilege in plenty of areas and transmen may gain it in a few.
The job interview situation in a STEM job is a good example. A female child is a whole lot less likely to have ever been encouraged or to have been given opportunities that make getting to that interview likely. That process will have started well before they can talk let alone develop gender identity. The transwoman will have advantage there. Girls will also have been taught to be reticent, downplay their ability and to not put themselves foward - also an advantage if you have a boyhood not girlhood. I can imagine that if you strongly 'identify' with females then even as a male you might adopt some of the internalised problems of being a woman - (lack of female role models springs to mind as a possible example) but you will still be treated by others as male and being identified as female by others is by far and away the largest problem for girls and women regardless of how they self-identidy. I can quite see that being gender non conforming must be difficult though that is by no means restricted to trans people. Of course trans people facing discrimination for being trans. I can also see that have a longstanding disgust or discomfort with your own body must be hard (though again not totally unfamilar to females in a patriarchy). However it is not an additive thing.

This is the second thread on this as the other one was full, and yet at no point do we seem to have made "trending". Just saying...

hideously patronising oldie

Yes, this, I don't consider myself particularly old (late 30s), and I'm bright, I've thought about stuff, but having a few jobs, a couple of kids, living a few different places - it all brought into stark relief the living reality of the patriarchy.

And I know it sounds horribly patronising, I know that people can empathise to an extent, but, somethings are just so visceral that I don't think it's enough to think, you need to experience.