Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

Esp as who really cares if a man wants to wear eyeliner and arrange flowers? Not women, imo

I thought Johnny Depp looked really cool as Jack Sparrow, wearing eyeliner ... but that's not the sort of "care" you mean, I take it?

You're right, it's men who are policing what a "real man" ought to be like. The worst thing women would do to a man who doesn't meet their definition of what a man ought to be like is ... not dating him.

Suicide rates are surely best compared with anorexia patients? Who no matter how hard they try, cannot exist with what they think they are

anorexia also linked to asd

Vestal - but men want to be able to tell women who it is okay for them to date (ie, date me or you are a transphobe)

Beyond, aha, you've just explained it to me. There is nothing - nothing - a man will not stoop to telling a woman if he really wants to fuck her. And if you persist in saying no you will always get called names. I've been called frigid and whore in the same sentence before now.

Depressiong realisation, isnt it. Lesbians thought they were 'safe' from having to fuck men, yet now they are transphobic if they dont want to suck a lady penis. Of course this does not apply around the other way (see Owen Jones)

Oh well, another day, another name to be called. "Lady penis". Lol. Oh yes, someone's mental health problems really take priority over a couple of billion years of mostly-absolute dualised reproductive evolution. I'm aware that there are intersex people, but not half as many as the modern 'queer' phenomenon would like to make out (or should that be make out with).

I thought I had posted this, but can't find it.
In reality, the extremely fixed ideas that transwomen have about what it constitutes to 'be a woman' are fixed by the GICs (and in turn by the legal/ government frameworks). They actually have no choice BUT to equate women with skirts, make-up, heels and fecking kittens, in order to qualify for legal identification. They are essentially forced by the RLT into enacting the gender binary unless they want to be, well, radfems lol.

I do have a small amount of sympathy for anyone struggling with this that is essentially dictated to by the GIC as to exactly how they have to dress, behave, act in order to qualify for support and legal protection. The trans system was set up by a patriarchal system that dictated the extremely narrow simplistic view of what it means to be a woman, and essentially legitimized the gender binary. There is literally no room for anything else - even dudes who just want to wear dresses 24/7 are forced into following these stupid rules - they have to play the game if they want recognition and protection.

Apart from ripping apart the GICs and the idiots that defined 'woman' in these terms and forced the binary onto anyone who dared transgress, I'd quite like to spend some time with the born women who run the dressing agencies.

What are they thinking? I mean, on a notional level, they are clearly thinking 'these guys are totes crap at passing and need our help. We can teach them how to be women! What make-up to wear, how to walk in heels, how to dress themselves to minimize the dude bits and enhance the women bits. Fuck yeah, I'm a woman and I can teach them!' And charge a fortune for it, obvs. And take a few pics that they can go home with. The most altruistic is possibly that they can prevent transwomen from getting beaten up if they 'pass', I suppose. (This isn't a bad thing. I am however, concerned by the industry itself.)

I just really want to sit down with gals and say 'what is it that really makes you a woman, honey?' These women have bought into the gender binary hook line and sinker. And are actively cementing it.

And yet another article on trans issues (ie. MtT issues) in the Guardian Media section today - www.theguardian.com/media/2016/feb/28/bbc3-trans-community-miss-transgender

"Everybody sees a trans woman at the end of her journey – Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox, [writer and campaigner] Janet Mock, they have all done their transition, they are at the end, they are the complete woman in everybody else’s eyes."

Phrases like this are repeated until they become "the truth" and it's almost a crime to say otherwise.

This is after an article two days ago on cross-dressing in fine-art photography and an article on the Film Independent Spirit Awards where Mya Taylor, MtT actor, won Best Supporting Female award for 'Tangerine'.

In reality, the extremely fixed ideas that transwomen have about what it constitutes to 'be a woman' are fixed by the GICs (and in turn by the legal/ government frameworks). They actually have no choice BUT to equate women with skirts, make-up, heels and fecking kittens, in order to qualify for legal identification.

Yes, that's ridiculous. It is ridiculous because nothing can turn a man into a woman. It's just not possible. They shouldn't be able to get into women's prisons, etc.

However, it should be possible to get surgery to look like the other sex without those stupid requirements. That should be based on professional psychological examination.

I, personally, am of the opinion that that kind of surgery is extremely risky and not likely to make anyone happier, but if at all, it will make those people happier whose problem is with their body. With their sex, not their gender.

Men who just want to wear dresses and high heels and stuff can do that without claiming to be women. They don't need anything - except maybe protection from male violence, but that's something everyone should get.
(And by everyone, I also mean actual women in prison, obviously ...)

And there are plenty of women like I am who don't spend all day thinking about what to wear (I wear the same clothes every day) and how we look is a tiny part of who we are - we are not necessarily even in relationships (I'm not currently). You can be a human on this planet without a partner and without thinking about what your gender is all the time. You just get on with life, hobbies, work, children.

Are we giving free advertising to the Guardian?

"Thank you for reading the Guardian. Help keep our journalism fearless and independent by becoming a Supporter for just £5 a month."

The above popped up when I went on to the paper to look at the article mentioned above, I didn't find the article.

Who can believe they are the complete woman? Well, no I think they are shooting themselves in the foot there. it's over the top, silly.

I've been thinking about this and have realised I have a LOT more sympathy with teenagers who are expressing as trans, than adults. It has a huge bearing on how I perceive their intentions and their responsibility - I can easily forgive a teenager or young person for being interested in this idea, and also it is a very common thing to struggle with your identity and protest in all kinds of ways, when you're growing up.

Not so much when you've already grown up. That makes me a lot more cynical, and sceptical...Caitlyn Jenner, for example, being an older person and not just a kid trying things out.

So my sympathy diminishes with the age of the person. I still think that serious transgenderism is more about a psychological problem than it's about 'being the wrong sex', but teenagers have a lot to learn and comprehend about the world, and many of us, me included, didn't get ourselves straight till we were well into adulthood.

Another thing that has occurred to me about the whole "living as a woman" thing (upon reading our experiences earlier on) was the fact that I live as a woman partly because people recognise my biology as a woman and relate to me accordingly. Lee cannot "live as a woman" as no one else is under the illusion that Lee has the biology of a woman. No matter how right-on Lee's female friends are, if one of them needed help moving a wardrobe, would they be tempted to ask Lee to help because of male strength? If people don't relate to Lee thinking Lee is a biological woman then Lee cannot live as a woman. When Lee goes to be interviewed for a first job are they going to worry Lee with get pregnant? No.

I just thought I'd mention I was party to a really interesting discussion about gender neutral toilets yesterday at work. A visitor from a public body talked about introducing this on their premises, but it had such adverse unintended consequences they had to reverse the initiative a couple of years later. Not a predatory men issue that's so often discussed, rather 'intersectionality' problems. Women in other protected groups - mainly those with religious or cultural (ethnicity) prohibitions on sharing intimate spaces with men stopped using the women's toilets and, in extremis, started using the (individual) disabled toilets. This then caused knock-on problems for the disabled staff and visitors. The organization realised so many other groups with protected status (i.e. to MTT) under the Equality Act were disadvantaged, that the situation was unsustainable and they reversed their decision and reinstated the previous toilet designations (i.e. by biological sex).

Addendum: The trans staff & visitors had the option to use the disabled loos, but it was much, much less disruptive for the disabled staff as there were much smaller numbers of trans sharing the facilities.

Yy romcom!

You've just reminded me about an incident that happened when I was working for a 'front line service' provider - I was office based, but we shared a building with the frontline staff and had access to showering facilities.
The management, in their wisdom, decided they were going to consolidate the showers and create a single cubicle accessible from both the male and female changing rooms.
At the time, I was suffering from menhorragia and on occasion, found myself needing to 'clean myself up' during the day. Access to the showers was my 'reasonable adjustment'.
When I pointed out that consolidating shower facilities would mean I'd be signed off sick for two days every month, the plan was shelved.

Are we giving free advertising to the Guardian?

Thinking about the claims of the article mentioned in the post by AuntGertrude (which I haven't and will not read)

they have all done their transition, they are at the end, they are the complete woman in everybody else’s eyes

Have the guardian realized that the use of words like 'complete woman' initiaites many more clicks?? It seems so ott that it could be goady imv.

Who is this "everybody else" they speak of?

I don't know anyone who thinks a bloke wearing a dress if a complete woman...except other blokes wearing dresses.

Well, no, not even the trans-bians want to have sex with other be-penised trans-bians....

Its "triggering"

"Complete woman" - is that, like, maid in the living room, cook in the kitchen and whore in the bedroom? Or whatever that offensive cliché was. What a load of rubbish. Guardian has seriously gone down in my opinion with all this.

'...They are the complete woman in everybody else's eyes.'

I suppose when you exist in a heavily censored echo chamber, refusing to listen or engage with any dissident opinions (especially from those pesky uterus-bearers...what do they know, right?) it must seem as though those voices you hear agreeing with you do indeed reflect 'everybody'. But there is no debate on this issue when every concern raised can be dismissed by cries of 'omg, transphobia!' without actually having to engage with the points raised.

God. I've just got back from my weekend away and phew I have a lot of reading to do!!

I've just stumbled across the Matthew/Chelsea Attonley story - born male, transitioned to female including surgery and hormones, only to decide a few years later that he didn't like the way people perceived him as a woman so sought reversal of the reassignment on the NHS so he can, amongst other things, get full erections again.
He claims that the NHS poorly prepared him for what life would be like post transition, despite 'living as a woman' for 2 years.

He's been dismissed as 'not a real trans' in much of the trans-activist coverage.

For me, what that shows is that it's quite possible for a man to convince medical professionals that they are a woman. What chance have the rest of us got of distinguishing between a real and a fake?

The scary thing is that nowadays medical 'gate keeping' has been framed as trans phobia, so a man doesn't even need to try and convince a medical professional that he is really a woman...he just has to say that he is, and the medical professional has to treat him as such, no questions asked.

And that's one of the problems that I have with the demands of trans activists, frankly (and one of the issues that has been thrown up in the wake of the bathroom bills in the USA). We simply are not allowed to ask or question when male bodies persons come into our safe spaces. Anybody sporting a penis can come into women's toilets, showers, refuges, rape centres etc, and to even question whether they are a 'real' trans woman has been framed as an act of bigoted violence in itself. How are women supposed to stay safe when we cannot even question if the hulking man in the changing room is there because he has a inner sense of womanhood or because he wants to look at naked women and girls? How can they even be considered women's spaces, if the concept of 'woman' has been rendered down to 'anybody who claims to be'? And ultimately, what difference is there between a 'real' trans person and a 'fake' one when they are both afforded the same legal rights to demand access to women's private spaces?