Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

It's not just the shitty sexual and physical abuse that makes women's biology is so relevant. I had SPD with both pregnancies. My youngest is 8yo and I still have a few days each month when walking is more painful and any kind of sport which puts stress on the pelvis is really, really painful. I have a 30 min walk to work each day. That'll be one plus of the menopause for me. I have a male friend who is having hormone therapy for cancer and it's upped his oestrogen. He said he never realised how even his hormones had been as a man & found the more female fluctuations really hard, especially feeling weepy. No doubt transitioning TW find that hard too, but its the norm for women and something we get endless sexist comments about.

Yy romcom

I think that we should not be afraid of discussion with other people and should not come to conclusions about their motivations without giving them a fair hearing.

Long before 9 11 and before any discussion of Islam in the media I grew up in East London and went to sixth form with quite a few girls wearing niqabs.

I came rapidly to the conclusion that this was a bad idea as social interaction with these girls was so limited and they seemed so isolated from the other students.

My motivation for these thoughts was certainly not hatred or fear.

The whole thing with the deleted Guardian comments has made me reflect on how important it is that people are allowed to express their opinions.

Mychrispbag

That's a bit disingenuous.

I've no wish to derail the topic, just to put on the record that I profoundly disagree with your accusation that my view is disingenuous i.e.that I have a secret motives and am insincere, which is what disingenuous means.

I have a lot of faults but I am not insincere, nor do I have secret motives. I was commenting on the overuse and inaccurate use of the word 'phobia'

It's a fashionable way of silencing debate as most people do not wish to be called phobic and open themselves up to become targets of internet bullies. I am saying we should not allow that to happen. I think we should stand up to internet bullies.

I do agree that to use the term "phobic" in this context is ridiculous. Transphobic it is a term used to imply bigotry rather than fear, (homophobic was used in a more accurate way when I first heard it used, by gay friends, in ref to straight men who seemed to have deep seated fears of gay men). I am sure I would be labelled transphobic for my views on this thread, and that really bothers me. Trans-sceptic is much more accurate, as pointed out up-thread. I am certainly that.

Yy vix and grimble

The Guardian deletions are making me re-think whether I want to keep buying it tbh, if it can be so quick to trample on the valid aurguments and veiws of so many women.

sirvix, I wondered if the Guardian leadership/editor know about the deletions tbh. It seems so very extreme, I was thinking it must be a case of Rogue Moderator.

But maybe I'm just ridiculously naive.

I imagine they do know, but its a good question

Might be worth tweeting Kath Viner?

For many of us this has no impact at all - in our ordinary life we aren't dealing with different genders in prison and all the hard issues. The only trans person I know is a court master or something like that and as far as I know most people have been very accommodating to the change.

Now I suppose if a teenage girl transitioning to boy joined my sons' all boys school that might be a slight issue but I would hope the boys would be kind and respectful as most people are in the UK.
I would have problems though if one of the few positions of power in the UK were given to someone trans when there are usually loads of qualified other women agvailable who are constantly over looked. Once women have 80% 9of positions of UK power say or even 50% may be we can start allocating a very rare position of power to someone trans or make the trans women take from the male quota at least until we are 50/50.

For many of us this has no impact at all - in our ordinary life we aren't dealing with different genders in prison and all the hard issues.

True, but I'm angry about it nevertheless. Just as I'm angry about the clothes manufacturers who exploit women in Bangladesh.

@SirVix: Write to them and threaten not to buy their newspaper anymore if this continues? That way, they will know that it happens, and also that they're driving customers away.

I was thinking about the issue of suicides in transgender people.

Is the high rate of suicide due solely to the cruelty meted out to them by society or is there a possibility that it is contributed to by the difficulties they face 'coming out' to family etc. And dealing with the feelings towards them of, for example, their children or spouses.

Being more open about transgenderism would help in both cases I would think. But should for example the suicides in prison be solely blamed on me (as a member of society)/ government for not implementing changes or Gps or the NHS for not being quick enough to provide support, or is it a self-esteem/acceptance issue of the person themselves which is something we as a society can't directly fix?

I wonder what the suicide rate amongst homosexuals was before there were changes.

Equally, I wonder about the whole "epidemic of violence against trans women" thing. Clearly there is violence against them but there's violence against women too. Is the incidence of violence against trans women higher than that of violence against women? Either way, the cause of this violence is usually men, not women, so why not blame men instead of ranting about TERFs?

I really find it hard to believe that the violence against trans people who identify as women is higher than that against actual women. They will have a size advantage for a start. I think it is more that men have no idea, truly , what violence women deal with day in, day out. So if they then start presenting as women, and experiencing some of that violence, then it must come as a shock.

So if they then start presenting as women, and experiencing some of that violence, then it must come as a shock.

It shouldn't, really, though, should it? Because it's not particularly well hidden.
Travel most days on the public transport network and you'll see a woman assaulted in some way. I've had a man grab my crotch as I climbed onto a train with my toddler DD, and look me straight in the eye, while all the men around us avoided eye context, shuffled their feet and pretended not to see. It's blatant.
So why is it such a surprise?

Trans-women are people who want to live the life of a woman. Surely that means they've observed and noted what "being a woman" actually involves ?!?

I think men pootle along happily and almost perversely ignore it, unless it is something pretty blatant, simply because it isn't happening to them. I've was on the tube years ago, as a young woman and had a man sitting next to me deliberately spread his legs wider, and wider, pushing against my thigh and forcing me into a tiny space, while looking at my face for the reaction. Man opposite didn't say anything. I had to get off the train. I've had a lot of abuse in the street, when other men have been around. I've had a friend's boyfriend, (who I had liked and got on well until this point) say "Well he's always welcome in my house, he seemed like a nice bloke, he was fine with me" about the man that almost killed me, who'd I'd managed to get away from a few months before. There is a culture of completely diminishing violence against women.

I think men pootle along happily and almost perversely ignore it, unless it is something pretty blatant, simply because it isn't happening to them

And I get that, I really do - (not that I'm happy about it, mind).

But, someone who wants to be a woman would surely notice, wouldn't they? Because if they haven't, and all the negative bits of being a woman comes as a surprise once they've transitioned, then it suggests that the decision to transition isn't a particularly well informed one; it might almost be described as a "whim" - because while they know what they don't want to be, they don't really know what they are choosing to become.

Re the Guardian, there was a whole thread on people dropping it post-Cologne due to it's collusion in that cover-up and dismissal of male violence against women in favour of other factions. Women are always at the bottom of the heap www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2544854-I-will-stop-reading-the-Guardian-now-anyone-else-like-to-join-me

PrettyBrightFireflies, years ago when I first heard of transwomen, I really could not understand why anyone born male would want to become female. The other way, yes, to escape the constant, constant sexual harassment: my list reads, first molested around age 8 or so, verbal really started around 10 or 11, being followed, groped, basically feeling like a dirty bit of tissue there for temporary male pleasure to be torn and thrown on a whim and nothing else, never knowing when I might have to run or fight who, accordingly started fantasising about suicide at age 14 or so. We all know this sort of score but this Anna Lee does not and never will. I only heard of her last night, I'm glad to find this thread.

Hmm.-PrettyBrightFireflies, Yes, I agree. I hadn't given it enough thought. Although sometimes I do think that transitioning could be a whim. But yes, I do see what you are saying and it makes sense to me that a man wanting to be the opposite sex should have given more attention to women's existence than the average man does.

Julie Bindell just tweeted about the "Claire" incident, and the tweet went poof as I was pressing like- at least I can't find it now?

"a man wanting to be the opposite sex should have given more attention to women's existence than the average man does." It's weird isn't it. They just seem to go for the pretty twee pink flowery butterfly image on the commercials and have no inkling what it really is like being a second class citizen. Evidenced by the way they "change", ie put a dress on, and then start spewing crap about how shit the world is to them! Welcome to being female, did you really think it was so easy?

I also listened to this post miriamafloat.wordpress.com/2016/02/28/that-magic-moment/ by someone who is re-transitioning, and the lack of support for him is really shocking compared to the support he would be getting to transition. Are young people are being brain-washed into making life changing decisions based on the lie that it is possible to change sex, and then given no help or support if they recognise that lie? There was a woman on here a month or so back, asking how to help her three-year old child transition for instance. It is insane. Esp as who really cares if a man wants to wear eyeliner and arrange flowers? Not women, imo.

I was thinking about the issue of suicides in transgender people.

I think most of the suicide rate is due to the fact that they aren't at peace with themselves. In that way, you cannot compare it to homosexuality.

A man who wants to be a woman will never really BE a woman. This is frustrating, and may drive some to suicide, especially when they have mutilated the healthy body they have, and only then realize that they were lied to, that they can never change their actual, biological sex.

This is something no one can change, it's inherent in being transsexual. (And I very much doubt those transgender males who decide at age 60 that they have always felt "like a woman", whatever this is supposed to mean, have a suicide rate that differs from the male average.)

If people committed suicide because someone on the internet writes nasty things about them, then the suicide rate among radical feminists, or just feminists in general, would be way higher than that of transwomen. (Though, has anyone ever done research on that? Or are radical feminists not important enough for anyone to be concerned over their suicide rates?)