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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

999 replies

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 15:52

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
QueenLaBeefah · 26/02/2016 15:45

If Anna rocks up to a job interview I can 100% guarantee you that no employer will think "hmm, better not employ her as she will run off and have a baby any minute now." An infertile woman will still be denied a job because an employer will assume she is fertile.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 26/02/2016 15:47

"I have no idea how to place myself in this world"

I think that is what is most terrifying for me; the fact that the world has changed around me so greatly that the term woman now refers to both people with and without penises - and yet no one is willing to explain this new world too me, because every time I ask a question, I am not only silenced, but accused of violence and intolerance.

I'm left, bewildered, trying to understand how the world I live in now works with absolutely no frame of reference.

VincentVanLowe · 26/02/2016 15:49

If Lee wants to 'stand with women', why has their campaign material so far been so unashamedly anti-feminist? And why have they been deleting womens comments and concerns from their Facebook page? Did they spend any time consulting women before deciding to run or writing up their manifesto goals?

WilLiAmHerschel · 26/02/2016 16:02

She's a woman not an effeminate man!

What makes Anna a woman, 4thwave? What do you think a woman is?

Cis is offensive. I don't agree with censoring but if you have a problem with people calling Anna 'he', you really should have a think about why you think it's OK for you to call women 'cis'.

GreenTomatoJam · 26/02/2016 16:04

If you don't want to answer questions about what makes a woman, can you tell me what the differences between a woman and an effeminate man are?

You brought up the comparison, so I'm presuming you have at least a small list in your head of the differences?

ShortcutButton · 26/02/2016 16:06

I cannot apologise enough to you all for my outburst yesterday. I am so sorry, that I detracted from all the well reasoned and articulate comments.

It is a lesson learnt on my part

I would actually like to apologise to Anna and Sarah, if they truly perceived my comment as a threat, and think (as Sarah has expressed) that I may act upon it.

It was not a threat. I have zero inclination/intention of finding child care for my kids, taking time off work and travelling to Yorkshire/Lancashire to initiate a physical fight with 2 blokes. You can sleep easy

QueenLaBeefah · 26/02/2016 16:07

Why is misgendering offensive but Cis isn't.

4thwavedespair · 26/02/2016 16:09

Trans people are only interested in trans rights. Sod the women. Why else would they constantly fight against women? Constantly blame feminists for everything?

Constantly invade the spaces of women who state over and over that they are uncomfortable and do not want it? – HER ENTIRE PLATFORM IS PRO WOMEN???

If Lee wants to 'stand with women', why has their campaign material so far been so unashamedly anti-feminist? - DID YOU READ MY FIRST MESSAGE IN WHICH I OUTLINED HER ENTIRE MANIFESTO WHICH SPEAKS TO MANY WOMEN’S NEEDS.

Speaking as a child-free woman, I would not seek to take on a role that was about representing mothers. I can represent women perfectly well, because I am one. – so because there are student mothers, should we mandate that any woman standing for NUS Woman’s Office must be a Mother ??

The thing about job interview – yeah but they might not give her the job because trans women are characterised as violent, as mentally ill as unstable and as other by transphobes and by society in general. Also some trans women pass v well and don’t disclose their trans status so would probably be assumed fertile too??

Well, what do you think a woman is? I don't have my answer 100% down for his. I'm not a gender theorist, just a state school educated student feminist. My thinking isn’t perfect and I’m a cis woman (going to continue calling myself that, as it’s my own identification which you can’t deny) so my understanding of trans and other identities is limited. I would look to others – to Butler, to Serano, to brilliant bloggers and lists of people I don’t have time to find right now to explain this definition of womanhood. I regret answering this because my answer will be incomplete and not great because I'm no theorist and because I'm busy and tired and unwell and I know you will use to judge everything I have said by - though it hasn't been my main point and I know it'll never change most of your minds about who is and isn't a woman but ok I'll try...

What defines us? Menstruation - what about women who don't menstruate? Ability to bear children - what about those of us who can't? I'm guessing you aren't going to say femininity because we all have our own relationship to that? Our vaginas - what does a vagina look like, what if it's "deformed", what if it doesn't do what vaginas are meant to do? What if our hormones are off because off illnesses and genetic disorders? When we locate womanhood in biology, how many women do we leave behind? And doesn't it all get a bit wandering womb up in here?

To me, womanhood is about how you’re responded to by society, how we’re shaped – and yes, an affinity – however complicated that might be. It has two parts, if society calls you woman and treats you like a woman – you’re a woman. That relationship might be fraught – mine relationship is, but if you’re subjectivised as such and you don’t fully reject that label – you’re a woman. It doesn’t mean you’re happy about it or that that gendering isn’t traumatic or painful in someways. If you reject that label and seek another one, you might be genderqueer or if the category woman doesn’t apply to you but when you hear the word “man”, you feel that affinity yourself in that position – then you’re a man.

I feel like a woman because society rejects my voice. I feel like a woman because when I read Atwood bell hooks, or Woolf or Alice Walker or Sappho or whoever, they speak to me on a level I can’t articulate. I feel like a woman because Shakespeare makes me angry with all those dead and useless women. I feel like a woman because I am sick to death of Hamlet. I feel like a woman because this conversation hurts me, to see my own gender turn against its own. And yes,I do feel like a woman in part because of my vagina, because of my hormonal acne and because of those times crouching in loos pissing on sticks - but that isn't the sum of my feeling or my experience. I feel like a woman in my head, in my heart, in parts of myself I can’t name. I feel like a woman in my every interaction with men – good or bad. I feel in my every interaction with women. If someone clicked their fingers and I was me but I suddenly had a penis and no breasts – I would still feel like a woman, I would still be a woman.

I don’t know – I’m not great at explaining it. That isn’t what I came here to do – to pretend to be an authority on explaining womanhood. I came to defend Anna’s (and Hareem’s) feminist credentials and to express my sincere and heartfelt disappointment at the unkindness and intolerance I read here. I’m not trans, I have a few trans friends and I believe in trans rights but I’m no expert on defining these ideas of terms.
My manifesto for womanhood good comes from many places and many people. It comes from the strong beautiful solidarity I have experiences as part of a feminist society which embraces all women. It comes because I look at Anna and I see someone fighting my fight for me with all her strength and I am thankful.

Here’s a thing Brooke Mangnati (who I guess probably isn’t a favourite around here said) which I feel deeply:

“Here's an idea, not mine, and not a new one. If you want to be a woman, you're in. If you feel or know you are a woman even if the majority of the world claims you're not, you're in. Born with the reproductive organs of a woman? You're a woman. Trans women, who struggle for the right to be recognised and fight against some of the highest instances of violence, depression and suicide in the world? Are women no less "real" than me. As John le Carré so astutely put it in Smiley's People: "Society is an association of minorities."
The concept of woman is not narrow and fragile, it is robust and will take all comers. Its borders do not need policing. It does not threaten me, lessen me, or lessen anyone's womanhood, to acknowledge other women and to hear their lived experience.”

No man is ever going to pretend to be trans to speak over women. It’s too terrible, being trans. It’s terrible because of medical care, because of abusive me who kill trans women for threatening their masculinity and it is terrible because of women like you who speak in ways like this, who mock, humiliate, talk violently of and piss on the womanhood and the solidarity of women like Anna. You make their lives harder and you do a disservice to all women and to feminism in doing so.

GreenTomatoJam · 26/02/2016 16:11

Cis is offensive.

I don't believe in brain sex/gender, so my gender can't match

If we're talking about externally imposed gender norms, I don't match those either

And I'm certainly not happy about them.

Yet, here I am, definitely a woman (and yes, I'm completely certain of that - the two kids lounging around playing computer games rather prove it)

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 16:12

Imo

And so it begins:  Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS
IShouldBeSoLurky · 26/02/2016 16:12

so because there are student mothers, should we mandate that any woman standing for NUS Woman’s Office must be a Mother ??

I think you're being a bit obtuse. If there was an NUS Mother's Office, would it be reasonable to expect that the person leading it should be a mother?

QueenLaBeefah · 26/02/2016 16:14

Who is threatening trans. Who is being violent against trans?

Men.

So why are feminists getting it in the neck? Why do women have to give up our precious, hard fought for rights? Why doesn't the trans movement take its fight up with men?

4thwavedespair · 26/02/2016 16:14

If there was an NUS Mother's Office, would it be reasonable to expect that the person leading it should be a mother? - yes

so applying that here - an NUS Woman's Officer should be a woman - which ding, ding, ding, Anna is

RomiiRoo · 26/02/2016 16:15

Before this thread ends, can I just add one small, but important, point? We don't have to agree with what Anna and friends are saying - we live in a democracy.

Much as I would like to hear the answers to the questions posed, until some are forthcoming, this simply detracts from the valid discussion about what we, in a democracy, can do to bring our concerns legitimately to the table. Anyone has the right to write to their MP and ask questions as a way of opening up discussion.

OhShutUpThomas · 26/02/2016 16:15

HER ENTIRE PLATFORM IS PRO WOMEN???

I've read her manifesto. It's really not.

In response to the rest of your post, 'woman' is not a feeling. 'Woman' means being born and raised as a biologically female person.

I can't speak for trans people. I haven't experienced their troubles.
Trans people cannot speak for women. For the same reason.

And again, what do you think of Rachel Dolezal? Can one identify as black?

QueenLaBeefah · 26/02/2016 16:15

Ding ding ding. She isn't.

slugseatlettuce · 26/02/2016 16:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 16:15

Woman = adult human female
Female = of the sex that can bear young and has the larger gamete

IShouldBeSoLurky · 26/02/2016 16:16

No, Anna is a transwoman. Transwomen face many issues, but conflating them with the issues women face is not correct in my view.

OhShutUpThomas · 26/02/2016 16:16

an NUS Woman's Officer should be a woman - which ding, ding, ding, Anna is

No. Anna is not.

GreenTomatoJam · 26/02/2016 16:16

No man is ever going to pretend to be trans to speak over women

I honestly don't agree. I've seen men (and women) go to extraordinary lengths to speak over women, to get positions of power, to get fame.

Bunging on a dress and a wig being widely celebrated for it really isn't that much effort at all.

I put on boxers and a hoodie this morning - where's my vogue cover?

PrettyBrightFireflies · 26/02/2016 16:16

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

VincentVanLowe · 26/02/2016 16:17

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

ShortcutButton · 26/02/2016 16:19

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

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