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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

999 replies

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 15:52

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
PrettyBrightFireflies · 26/02/2016 13:08

Of course if it is not just the "man in a dress" and "misgendering" posts that assume "controversial" truths that are being removed/discouraged, but even comments at the level of "I am concerned about the safety implications of allowing people with penises into spaces that were traditionally biologically-female-only spaces" then one could say that the platform really isn't interested in debate

It is the latter that is being deleted by the advocates of trans-women rights in nearly every public platform but this one.

RiverTam · 26/02/2016 13:21

Err, biology is a fact. Woman = adult female. Transwomen = biological male. Facts. That some people don't like this is irrelevant. By denying these truths TAs are sleepwalking towards their community not getting the medical and mental health care and support they need, and they are interfering with women's access of these in the process.

slugseatlettuce · 26/02/2016 13:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsJamin · 26/02/2016 13:27

Guardian article published on this today. Apparently...
"Lee is determined not to let the online trolls and abusers get in her way. Her campaign team called an emergency meeting to tackle them – and resolved not to engage. “Any negative comments are going to take a toll on your mental health and make you feel bad. But we are changing perspectives, and wider society is slowly waking up to the fact that trans people exist and have rights.”"
Poor poor Lee feeling bad... so you should, you're taking a women's position and derailing the post for your own transagenda. FFS. We know you exist and have just as many rights as you should do already - you're taking away the rights of women to have a space defined for themselves. This is making me so angry.

JAPAB · 26/02/2016 13:32

Err, biology is a fact. Woman = adult female. Transwomen = biological male. Facts. That some people don't like this is irrelevant. By denying these truths...

One doesn't need to "deny" or "dislike" that in biological science male and female have particular definitions. Not everyone agrees that the biological conceptualisation of what it means to be a man or a woman is the only or most important one. We wouldn't be here if they did.

Cerseirys · 26/02/2016 13:32

The Guardian moderators are out in force today, judging by the amount of deleted comments on the article about Anna.

MrsJamin · 26/02/2016 13:33

There are SO many deleted comments. Deleting women's right to define themselves... it is SHOCKING.

MagicalRealist · 26/02/2016 13:53

"One doesn't need to "deny" or "dislike" that in biological science male and female have particular definitions. Not everyone agrees that the biological conceptualisation of what it means to be a man or a woman is the only or most important one."

So biology doesn't define whether somebody is male or female? Or it does define it but this scientific reality can simply be ignored in favour of your own invented one?

MagicalRealist · 26/02/2016 13:53

Sorry, that last post was quoting JAPAB.

MrsJamin · 26/02/2016 13:55

Oh and here comes our friend Sarah on the guardian thread... [WAVES!]

BarryMerry · 26/02/2016 13:59

Flipping eck... just had a look at those guardian comments. Then reloaded the page. The abusive comments like the one about Bob Mills were still standing, but the ones gently critcising the mod policy had gone totally kappoof... Not even a "this comment was deleted by a moderator" place holder. Shocking censorship by the graun.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 14:02

Hi sarah!

whatdoIget · 26/02/2016 14:03

Don't worry Sarah. No way would any woman try and take you and Anna on in a fight. You're perfectly safe Smile

WilLiAmHerschel · 26/02/2016 14:06

Flipping eck... just had a look at those guardian comments. Then reloaded the page. The abusive comments like the one about Bob Mills were still standing, but the ones gently critcising the mod policy had gone totally kappoof... Not even a "this comment was deleted by a moderator" place holder. Shocking censorship by the graun.

I've had two comments questioning the deletion policy that have vanished. And it all happened in under 5 minutes.

slugseatlettuce · 26/02/2016 14:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 14:19

I suspect Sarah is moderating Grin

And so it begins:  Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS
hazeyjane · 26/02/2016 14:23

Where are the threats to beat anyone to a "bloody pulp"!

WilLiAmHerschel · 26/02/2016 14:26

Just seen in that screenshot that I've had another comment deleted. I replied to Sarah's comment.

4thwavedespair · 26/02/2016 14:30

I can’t even begin to articulate my despair and disappointment in women posting on this thread who believe they are feminists. The bile, vitriol and, yes, bigotry in almost every single one of these posts makes me ashamed, as a cis woman, of "feminism".

Have any of you even looked at Anna’s manifesto?

She wants to campaign against Tory cuts which affect women the hardest, including mothers.

She wants to demand a review of Abortion Law and make sure that the UK isn’t complacent in ensuring free access to all women.

Yes, allow trans women on Sports teams but also push the wonderful This Girl Can programme to encourage all women to participate in sports.

Fight the tampon tax and ensure Student Unions sell tampons etc at fair prices.

Fight the male dominated leadership of NUS.

She wants to decolonise our curriculum and fight for representation.
Make sure sexual harrassmet research extends to post-grads as well

“DEVELOP PARENT FRIENDLY CAMPUS ASSESSMENT” (in caps since so many people wilfully claimed she said nothing about student parents)

Loads of stuff around sex ed and consent training in schools and universities.

And yes, in some of these statements she explicitly references trans people’s experiences. But as a kind of menstruating (thanks Mirena coil), queer, cis woman student – these demands speak to me and for me. I feel included and supported in each of them – which of these are problematic for you all?! And why does including space for trans women in some of these negate the rights of cis women? I want more women in leadership in the NUS and I want those women to be black and queer and working class and gay and disabled and YES, trans.

I know I’m not going to convince you all that Anna is as much of a woman as I am. I am so saddened by the second wave’s attitude to trans women. Accepting trans women as women does not negate my lived experience as a cis woman, it doesn’t harm my womanhood, it doesn’t undo the lived experience of my sexed bodies, it just accepts there are more experiences. Just as the experiences of lesbian women are different from mine or women who can’t menstruate or women with physical disabilities. Our womanhood presents in different ways and has different problems and Anna knows this, Anna isn’t denying cis women’s bodies, she’s fighting for us to.

To be honest, I don’t know if I’ll vote for her. Simply because I personally know Hareem Ghani who is an outstanding candidate also. The idea that there isn’t a feminist standing for this positition is laughable. I don’t know Anna but from a cursory reading of her manifesto and track record, she seems like a brilliant intersectional feminist and Hareem is brilliant too. She also fights for intersectionality and has helped co-ordinate events which centre trans voices.

I’m glad the next generation of feminists is leaving your bigotry behind and I am proud to be one of them. I wish, desperately for inter-generational feminism – as I saw a friend quote the other day, I want to think back through my mothers. But if my mothers are the women posting on here – full of hatred, denying trans women, talking violently about them, mocking them in the most misogynistic way that wouldn’t be out of place on Return of Kings or the Daily Mail – then I will be motherless and I will find my sisters instead. My sisters will be Muslim women like Hareem, who fight tooth and nail for equality despite rampant islamophobia and misogyny and they will be women like Anna with all her integrity and brilliant activism who I have never met but would embrace as a sister with all the love I can manage.

Whichever one of these women I vote for, whoever ends up representing my needs a student, I will be proud of for their commitment to liberation for all women. You could all learn something from both of them.

whatdoIget · 26/02/2016 14:30

I saw your reply WillIAm. Nothing offensive in it at all. I think Sarah IS moderating. They obviously don't like their own violent threats being mentioned.

slugseatlettuce · 26/02/2016 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FimbleBlizzard · 26/02/2016 14:35

"I agree JAPAB some people see gender as a more important aspect of man/woman than sex.
The problem with that is if we all took that approach it then makes it hard to talk about issues affecting bio women e.g. risk of sexual assault from bio men. Or discrimination due to breastfeeding. Or girls dropping out of education in the third world due to menstruation. Because not all women menstruate, men can breastfeed too, women can rape etc etc. We end up having to infer it anyway (menstruating people = bio women, breastfeeding people = bio women, rapists = bio men)."

I think most people here see that logic. The problem is that that logic is not self evident to people unfamiliar with this debate. To have a chance of getting that message across, we need all these good explanations of why it's important to tie the man/woman name to biological sex, not gender, to be included somewhere every time discussion or debate includes the 'misgendering' of trans individuals.

Otherwise, each time a feminist refers to a tw as a man it will continue to be interpreted as just another bit of nastiness and more evidence of how evil and transphobic feminists are. In some contexts (social) of course it can be nasty, but in many debate and discussion contexts it is reasonable and sensible - that's the point we're trying to make, but we need to make it, we can't assume it makes sense to anyone without us showing them why.

Even with the explanations like yours above included, many feminists will still be assumed to be lying and secretly driven just by bigotry, but perhaps some people will listen to the accompanying arguments and explanations and see that actually they are reasonable.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 14:36

Oo look, someone who identifies as queer!

Perhaps you could explain what that means to us doddery old women? :)

IShouldBeSoLurky · 26/02/2016 14:39

Out of interest, has Anna stated anywhere what her disability is?

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 26/02/2016 14:39

Nope.