And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

[PosieReturningParker]

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

She's a transwoman. Not a woman.

I find Cis offensive do please stop using it. I don't need a label.

Could i, with the most honourable of intentions, ask what it is that you believe makes a transwoman 'count' as a woman?

Lee was living as a 'cis man' when they began uni. They've changed their clothes and their name, so now they're a woman?

4th if you have a proper read through the thread you'll see what our issues are.

If Anna was running for a position in trans rights I'd fully support them.

If TAs were campaigning for extra unisex bathrooms and changing rooms, I'd fully support them.

If TAs were campaigning for rape crisis centres for trans people, I'd fully support them.

But they're not. They want to take the few rights and positions that women have managed to win, and remove them from us.

I can't support that.

I suspect that you have heard about this thread and assumed the rest. Please do take 20 mins or so to read through it.

No one here is bigoted or malicious. We just want fair rights for women.

I must take issue with both your ageist comments, and your use of 'cis' which most women find incredibly offensive. And many of us are under 30 and students, myself included. Although tbh, whether a woman is 20, 40 or 70, it really doesn't make her views any less valid.

So if a infertile woman (is that the best phrase, if it's not please let me know) ran for this position - would you call them out on this? Do you have to literally be able to have an unwanted pregancy to fight abortion law ?? And if something came up that Anna didn't know or felt our of her depth in, do you not think she would ask a cis friend or colleague?!

I'm not big on sports so I don't know how to address this really - but surely the difference is a difference in hormones? But some cis women have more Testosterone anyway? And if trans woman are taking Estrogen, might their hormones be different? TBH, calling out of my depth on sport and on biology here but I don't think the difference would be that great?

I don't use tampons. I've only ever used pads. I could still find a fair price by using my brain and by asking friends that do. I don't buy nappies yet but it I were elected woman's officer at my uni and decided to try and bring down price of nappies in the uni shop for student mothers, I'd research and I'd ask some student mothers. The candidate doesn't have to know anything, they just have to care and to be able to ask.

"Ok, but it can't be ignored that her choice to transition from male to female has already had a positive impact on the proportion of women represented in STEM without any additional biological women entering the field. Does she want more women to join the leadership, or does she want the existing men in the leadership to transition to women?"

Are you serious? This is just so ridiculous? Do you think trans people are a conspiracy to get more men in power? Do you really? REALLY think that? I'm so lost. Can someone explain?

The patriarchy punishes her as a woman and as a trans woman

Anna is not a woman. And just as I wouldn't presume to take office in a LGBT role, being a straight woman with no experience of LGBT issues, neither does Anna have any business taking a woman's role.

So, given what you've said, why would you object to a man taking this position? Everything you've said would apply to a man as well.

"Do you think trans people are a conspiracy to get more men in power?"

Whether they form a conspiracy or not is mostly irrelevant. If a male who identifies as trans gains a post that would otherwise have been occupied by a woman, the effect is 'more men in power'.

Can I ask, 4th, what are your views on people identifying as black to gain office to fight racism?

Can people identify as black?

@ ShuttupThomas - read it all last night actually, much to the dismay of my essay. I really thought I might find nuanced conversations here. I haven't.

"They want to take the few rights and positions that women have managed to win, and remove them from us." No, they don't! They just want to diversify that and add experiences to them. They aren't trying to take anything away from us. They want to fight WITH US. They want to be our allies - they are our allies!

At my uni, we now have extra Gender Neutral toilets some of which were once "male" or "female", that's not oppressing me in any way.

People on here described wanting to give Anna a bloody lip, called her a man in a dress, repeatedly misgendered her, implied that she is violent or delusional and you find CIS offensive?

I've had my opinions invalidated because apparently women who aren't ou of uni/haven't had kids can't experience sexism - can you call out the ageism there? Can you call out the exclusion of childless women from the movement YET AGAIN?

4thwave, thanks for your reply (up to the yeah, right lol, which was unwarranted).

I didn't say we had to agree, I was inviting discussion. But it could be a circular discussion, yes. I honestly don't see how identifying as a woman, and I am speaking beyond Anna so nothing personal, when you are born male will dismantle the patriarchy. Why not challenge what it means to be male by living differently as a man without labelling oneself woman?

Do you really want to live in a world where a child with long blonde hair who like dressing in dresses is either seen as a girl or trans and not as possibly a boy who happens to not want to wear what society sees as boy things? If you want to dismantle the patriarchy, why can men who do not feel like men (whatever that means) challenge the category men as it stands? Identifying as a woman reinforces a binary opposition surely, which patriarchy was built on.

culture thank you, that's exactly my point.

If you argue that the person who holds the post of Women's Officer in the NUS has no need to have direct experience of the issues they are campaigning for, then you open up that post to men and women (trans or otherwise).

Either this is a post that champions Women, or it is a post that represents women.

How has 'the patriarchy punished' Lee at all, please? Their own comments suggest that the worst they've suffered so far is losing some friends. But they got some new ones and a whole bunch of shiny new political support into the mix. Their campaign has received positive mainstream press from the Huffington, the Independent, and the Guardian. The woman who is running - not a peep in the press. Has the press covered other women's campaigns for this position in the past?

Far from 'suffering' under male supremacy, Lee benefits from it.

Who is denying men the right to be gender non-conforming? We live in the world of Bowie (or we did, sniff) and Boy George and Jaden Smith and many others who complicate masculinity. That's not Anna's experience. She's a woman not an effeminate man!

Well i dunno, you are excluding women from the movement and giving the 'ground' to men.

I'm a student too btw, yet apparently a big TERFy one who doesnt deserve representation at the NUS after i pay their bloody salaries. Grr

Do you think you can answer what you think a woman actually is before we get to 1000 posts?

How can a trans women add their experience to womens, when they are completely different and not based on the same underlying biological discrimination? To take your argument further, men can add valuable experience too then?

Not challenge the category men, I mean

What are you studying btw, if you dont mind sharing?
Personal research project of mine :)

So if a infertile woman (is that the best phrase, if it's not please let me know) ran for this position - would you call them out on this? Do you have to literally be able to have an unwanted pregancy to fight abortion law ?? And if something came up that Anna didn't know or felt our of her depth in, do you not think she would ask a cis friend or colleague?!

Before that infertile woman found out she was infertile, she quite possibly had pregnancy scares, she probably had expectations of being able to get pregnant at some point, she will have had medical assumptions made around the fact that she could get pregnant (have you read the hoops some women have to jump through to get the nastier acne medications!)

I'm not big on sports so I don't know how to address this really - but surely the difference is a difference in hormones? But some cis women have more Testosterone anyway? And if trans woman are taking Estrogen, might their hormones be different? TBH, calling out of my depth on sport and on biology here but I don't think the difference would be that great?

err - no, women virtually all women have much lower testosterone than men - we're also, on average, about 8 inches shorter and 2 stone lighter - and that's just two - there's a whole list referred to upthread, hormones are the least of it.

Are you serious? This is just so ridiculous? Do you think trans people are a conspiracy to get more men in power? Do you really? REALLY think that? I'm so lost. Can someone explain

Not a conspiracy, but it's happened - if Anna entered Uni pre-transition then Anna probably didn't have quite the same experiences being hounded out of Physics A-level that I did, being sexually harassed in Maths classes, being locked in a cupboard by my male classmates during my Computer Science, unbelievable uni interviews, or the lab techs ignoring questions while talking to the men. Ie. Anna's being counted as a woman in STEM having faced none of the hurdles getting there that a woman in STEM usually faces.

There was a thread a few months ago about feminism and women of colour - and it was enlightening how much goes over the head of someone who doesn't directly experience the discrimination.

Okay, Anna is a woman, fine.

Can you explain how this means the term woman should be understood? What is a woman? I have no idea how to place myself in this world - and please do not use the word cis in your answer. Try and explain what woman means to you please, because I would like to understand.

No, they don't! They just want to diversify that and add experiences to them. They aren't trying to take anything away from us. They want to fight WITH US. They want to be our allies - they are our allies!

I really, REALLY take issue with this.

Trans people are only interested in trans rights. Sod the women. Why else would they constantly fight against women? Constantly blame feminists for everything?
Constantly invade the spaces of women who state over and over that they are uncomfortable and do not want it?

No. No, no, no.

'Transwomen are our allies' what a joke.

And yes, 'cis' offends me. I'm not cis. Keep doing it and I will report you for misgendering. You've been told it's OFFENSIVE TO WOMEN, please stop.

I am going to guess sociology or similar

And I'll ask again 4th, what do you think of people identifying as black? Is that ok?

4thwave, do you feel like a woman? If so, what does that entail?

Speaking as a child-free woman, I would not seek to take on a role that was about representing mothers. I can represent women perfectly well, because I am one.