And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

[PosieReturningParker]

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

pretty I just can't bring myself to care. Anna is an adult and has freely made her choices which are incredibly harmful to women.

Its normal for the upcoming generation to feel that they are very original and all isn't it. And it isn't until you get older you realize every generation is like that. But there is so much malice, self interest and navel gazing with these guys. Are they all philosophy students??? They sure talk a lot of shit

Some of those feminists don't seem capable of forming their own opinions. They lack the guts to say what they really think.
This is proved by the fact that they are letting men^ tell them what to do.
They are so linear in their thinking, they can't see what's really happening - colluding in their own demise.

Wtfs wrong with them?
No backbone?

I think it matters a great deal if vulnerable individuals are being exploited to further a cause that erodes women's rights.

if that is what is happening (and I say if, because there is by no means unequivocal evidence, yet) then attacking Anna is self defeating. If that is why she is there - to be attacked by women - then doing so only furthers the cause of those who are trying to erode our rights.

HermioneWeasley Do you have a link to the FB page you just mentioned?

(sorry if I missed it)

That article MrsJamin linked is mind boggling! They taught people that you can't say "she" and "her" in relation to periods so then why is their society called "FemSoc"? Surely "FemSoc" discussing periods is triggering to people that can't cope with "she" and "her."
Maybe they will have to think of another name for feminism to make it gender neutral and inoffensive to trans people. And then we can have feminism back!

The problem is that "everybody knows" that there are horrible feminists who are driven to be trans critical just because they are evil bigots. People learn about the existence of these horrible feminists early on, and from then on they believe they already know the motivation behind any trans critical comment (bigotry) so of course they're not actually going to engage with those ideas or think about them even to disagree with them. Why would they? Any trans critical idea from a feminist is by definition bigotry, regardless of whether that idea actually hangs together perfectly logically, and so it doesn't need to be read or listened to.

That's why I think we need to be careful to avoid unnecessarily personal and nasty remarks, because all they do is confirm people's preconceptions of feminists discussing trans issues - even if those comments are surrounded by otherwise brilliant, polite and compelling arguments (which will unfortunately then be ignored).

RomCom that article got me thinking.

Perhaps if people have ideas we disagree with we should listen to what they say rather than jumping to conclusions about their motivations first?

So if for example someone was going on about immigration or the European Union perhaps I should spend 5 minutes actually listening to work out if they had a valid point (even though I might disagree) rather than mentally dismissing them as a bit xenophobic.

However I did think that site was using its very clear analysis of trans gender issues to oppose gay marriage and I couldn't quite work out what they thought the link between the two was.

Okay, so you shouldn't say 'she' because a transgender male might also menstruate? Is that it?

nightsky I'm trying to find out - leave it with me

That's why I think we need to be careful to avoid unnecessarily personal and nasty remarks, because all they do is confirm people's preconceptions of feminists discussing trans issues - even if those comments are surrounded by otherwise brilliant, polite and compelling arguments (which will unfortunately then be ignored).

I agree with this sentiment. Some of the posts above play into transactivists hands.

However I did think that site was using its very clear analysis of trans gender issues to oppose gay marriage and I couldn't quite work out what they thought the link between the two was.

I thought the same. It was also a bit disconcerting to find myself initially agreeing with a rightwinger for some of that article, until and then I got to the anti-gay marriage bits and then I was .

Lionheart yes I think that's why they think it's offensive. Also perhaps they think transwomen might feel excluded because they don't menstruate.

Sorry if this has been said before, but it all reminds me of this clip:

That's why I think we need to be careful to avoid unnecessarily personal and nasty remarks, because all they do is confirm people's preconceptions of feminists discussing trans issues - even if those comments are surrounded by otherwise brilliant, polite and compelling arguments (which will unfortunately then be ignored).

I agree with this sentiment. Some of the posts above play into transactivists hands.

I do agree - but then an angry little toddler in me says 'why do I have to be nice' I'm always nice, I'm always told that if I asked nicely I'd be listened to, yet no matter matter how nicely people here have asked questions, they're still labelled bigots, TERFs, transphobes and blocked.

I'm not sure that being nice gets people anywhere (although you don't need as many showers at the end of the day perhaps, perhaps you can sleep a bit better knowing you've followed your own sense of what's the right behaviour). I'm not sure that when you're dealing with people bigger and nastier than you, that remaining small and pleasant is going to work.

spot on Suburban

I'm not arguing for small and nice. Forthright but civil is so much more powerful.

I agree with pretty bright fireflies and fimbleblizzard. I've been catching up with this thread and watching the videos and learning a lot but I've had to work really hard at filtering out the more hurtful comments in my mind. When people are at a critical point in their thinking it can be hard to accept a viewpoint if what is being said is unnecessarily unkind.

I really wish it were the case - but it just feels like we're trying to maintain Marquis of Queensbury rules while they're using all the dirty fighting in the book.

I agree also and I apologise for my earlier outburst
I'll report myself

I agree, greentomato - there comes a time when "rising above it" and "keeping the higher ground" just doesn't work when those with opposing views fight dirty in order to discredit you.

In some ways, the oppression and suppression of our views so publicly may lead to more people thinking for themselves. One or two bigots are generally expected, but the widescale gagging of anyone with opposing views is eventually going to result in people asking questions, surely?

I feel VERY frustrated is all

Courts would listen if there was a legal case of a trans man trying to join a men only golf club!

Given the amount of time and effort the women here have put into listening and watching and thinking and analysing and then articulating reasonable arguments only to be deleted and insulted by people defending the right of a man to totally erase women while dressing in horrific ladyface, I think a bit of venting is more than understandable. Besides, it's true - it doesn't matter how nice we are, these men hate us and enjoy spreading their hatred of us.

My main reason for attempting to be polite in these conversations is that I feel better in myself for not sinking to their level, and I don't want to accidentally hit any bystanders with my anger. I do, however, think my anger is justified and I don't think that these men deserve the sympathy and generosity that women continue to give them.

I will not call them 'she', it offends me down to the lowest depths of my gut, it is not accurate, it is perpetuating the difficulty we are having with naming the problem which ultimately damages us as women, and to be honest it makes me feel like a fraud - im an atheist and it feels similar to expecting me to say prayers or something to make someone else feel better in a religion I do not share.

"I don't think that these men deserve the sympathy and generosity that women continue to give them."

Just to add - I do not think badly the women who continue to be kind in the face of this misogyny. It just makes me angrier tbh, like you are proving that you are fantastic human beings who always are considerate of other people, but these guys just don't care - they really don't. They don't care if we are devastated by all this, they don't care what it does to us, they don't care what rights we lose. You women who still can be kind - you deserve better than this.

This thread is moving very fast, I've not read all of it, but does anyone know any agricultural students, I do and I'm going to -harass- talk to them about it.
If anyone should get this it should be farmers