And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

[PosieReturningParker]

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

darryl I'm not sure they're trying to derail. I for one welcome other views, it's helpful to see how those with trans experiences view all this.

I wanted to be a boy when I was younger. It just looked like more fun and freedom to me. I'm so glad no one colluded with me and said I could be a boy. I was just accepted as I was and grew out of it. This was definitely a much easier path than being labelled transgender and going through transition. Thanks mum and dad, sincerely

Lizzie, you and your dc might find having a look at this video might be helpful.

I do believe that it is a mental health issue, possibly one that could take a while to get through. But we're not allowed to say that.

OhShutUpThomas - no I think you put it very well.

I can absolutely relate to the feelings of a female teenager who is gender non conforming and is struggling with confused thinking and a disturbed sense of identity. I've been there, I'm sure many on this thread have. I feel angry and distressed that there are adults who are enabling that.

Perhaps adults involved in the lives of girls with these issues should make an effort to listen to the adult women who have lived through it. There's no shortage of female detransitioners sharing info on the net. And then there are the women like me who never did the transitioning route but who self harmed in other ways, eating disorders, drugs, suicide attempts, prostitution - there's no shortage of adult women with a history of self harm linked to disturbed identity issues.

Me too, I was a right tomboy and much preferred playing with the boys than girls. The only time they ever got me anywhere near a dress was when I was bridesmaid, twice (and I am scowling in all the pictures)

I shudder to think that if I were a child now, a big thing would be made of it, instead of simply letting me 'be'.

No I wasn't trying to derail it. And saying something is spiteful is not labelling. I did not label anyone. I labelled the comments. I wasn't I trouncing a new idea to the thread with the idea of a fake trans gender person. The accusation was levelled directly at Anna a number of times and I was just acknowledging that it makes sense that such a thing probably happebs. I was ceding to that side of the argument not making a new one of my own. And no it is not for me to decide who is genuine and who is fake. I have not given way to my daughter's idea that she is male. I have listened and not argued with what she says. But i have never introduced the idea to her and i have sheltered her from it if anything. She never heard about trans anything until she was 9. I have not asked her to conform to a girly identity but I guess the world has! I have nevr forced her to wear a skirt! I am not offended by the suggestion that she is mentally ill. But I do think of mental illness as something that interrupts life more than my daughter's feelings interrupts hers at the moment. I do get we feel the need to kind of 'stay angry' and not be derailed. But I did wait until the thread seemed to be going over a lot of the same ground again.

lizzie I understand what you mean when you say it's not for you to judge whether a person is real or fake - but you concede there is a difference between the two?
What distinguishes a 'real' from a 'fake' in your opinion? By referring to them using different labels, there must be a difference between them in your own mind?

And I agree with the initial premise that Anna shouldn't be standing. And every comment about irony rings true from a feminist perspective. But I cannot rule out the possibility that this trans thing is actually real and that you're born with it, like homosexuality. And if that is true then some (not all) of the comments on this thread are profoundly wrong I think. Not that you can't say them, but that I feel obliged to put a different view up here, if only for the sake of the trans people who are reading this.

Isn't it actually quite disablist to say that a MH issue (gender dysphoria) is somehow "worse"/less socially acceptable than a physical issue ("born in the wrong body")?

RiverTam - thank you for sharing that video, was extremely down to earth and honest, gives me hope!

Ah, Lizzy we (MN) are a gift that just keeps giving to you. You may slip under others radars, but not mine.
.

Lurky - I think there is immense prejudice against people with mental health issues, and it is very difficult to talk openly about them. I think that it is very likely that there are people who think it is more wholesome in some way to identify as trans than be recognised as suffering with MH difficulties.

I wonder also if, for girls who are struggling with identity problems, there is more support and recognition and attention if they identify as trans than there would be otherwise? Girls and their issues are so overlooked. Girls self harm in loads of hidden and obvious ways but in general no one seems to care. Feminist campaigns pointing out the impact of objectification of women and girls in the media on girls' sense of identity and the way they feel about their bodies are mostly ignored or mocked. But the fake trans suicide rate gets taken seriously.

LizzieLou - it sounds to me you are talking about having some sort of religious faith that what you can't see and have no evidence for must have something true about it because you hope it does?

"I cannot rule out the possibility that this trans thing is actually real"

Why not? What evidence have you come across that shows it might be real?

Why not? What evidence have you come across that shows it might be real?

If you start from the premise that what makes an individual a "man" or a "woman" is solely decided by the chromosomes of their body, then no-one is ever going to find evidence of transsexualism being "real".

If on the other hand you think that the concepts have more to them, and do take in aspects of the inner self, well, you'll still have little or no evidence if you do not include other people's testimony as "evidence". Although if you do not then there is probably no "evidence" of what someone's sexual orientation is in that case either. There's no way to distinguish the person who "genuinely" is attracted to the sex of the people/person they sleep with, or whether they are "faking" it for some reason.

On another note, I find it odd that an athletic organisation would agree to segregate with regards to self-identified gender. Am I wrong in thinking that the main/only point of the segregations is because of physical differences (in general terms) between those with XX and XY-bodies? If that is no longer the case, then I would like to know what the organisation thinks the purpose of the segregation is.

Women is born female. That is all you need to know JAPAB. There is no more discussion to be had.

Looking at RiverTam's interesting video - assuming that is the speaker's room - it's very much a bloke's room in the background.

Transsexualism is unlikely to be an innate condition that people are born with, because brains are not sexed at birth. Transsexualism develops over time.
It is possible that there is a hormonal element to it, which can be considered to be innate/physical but that's not the same as having a brain/soul that is of the opposite sex.
Anyway this isn't even what transgender means any more. The vast majority of trans people appear to be hormonally entirely their sex but with a discomfort with gender roles.
I don't believe that validating a child when they say they are a boy/girl inside is the right approach.

I agree with what 3point1 said, firstly - clothes were clothes, they were not gendered colours in the 1970s, i had things which could do a boy or girl. Whereas now, clothes, toys, etc define boy or girl visually.

I don't know enough to say, but if gender dysphoria is something people are born with, isn't that like being on the autistic spectrum (which I am fairly sure my DS is). In other words, it is neurological and developmental rather than a mental health illness like I am depressed.

Not being accepted for who you are, or being pressured to conform may cause mental health problems, but that is different.

Even if one accepts (and I think this acceptance was the starting point for the trans* movement, and I am not disputing it) that gender dysphoria is a condition from birth, this does not mean a boy is a girl and vice versa. They are a person with a specific condition.

The debate is how individuals and society respond to that condition (thinking beyond male and female to a third or mixed gender with separate needs; or by simply taking the path that well, this person can 'become' the opposite sex through a process of transitioning). The process of transitioning only is possible in a society with sufficient knowledge of hormones, surgical techniques and finance for this (as well as permissive legislation), and where the outward signifiers of male or female are not genitals (in public space) but clothes, accepted gender roles and behaviours.

Secondly, what is on the table is now a long way from individuals with body dysphoria. It is about anyone who identifies as the opposite 'gender'. You cannot identify as the opposite sex because you are born with certain reproductive organs and that is how bodies are sexed. The male-female reproductive distinction shapes experience. It defies logic to say you identify as the opposite sex; and female separate spaces are about sex, not gender (which is a construct); women's issues are about sex, not gender. So, even if people want to identify as the opposite gender, they still do not have the same needs etc as people of the opposite sex.

Which brings us to the point of contention - the fact that the dominant sex (male) are using arguments about a socially constructed edifice (gender) to erode rights and spaces of the not dominant sex (female). The latter experience violence, discrimination etc on grounds of their sexed bodies.

This is rambling as on phone. I need to work out how this understanding has developed in less than a couple of decades.

For the record, i was nice to hareem and non-argumentative. I told her i was a student and thought she was the best candidate for the job, and wished her luck. Nothing even hinting at "transphobic" there.

I have been blocked

So there we go. Fuck you NUS.

Looking at RiverTam's interesting video - assuming that is the speaker's room - it's very much a bloke's room in the background.

I don't see that at all. It could just as easily be my room - it isn't. I thought the video was great though.

Who blocked you Beyond?

Anna blocked me on Twitter because I asked her why she though she was more suited to the job than a woman.

Okay i've checked my workding and it could perhaps hint at transphobic. But was not phrasing that wouldnt usually be okay. I said i thought she was the only candidate for the job.

Hareem blocked me, will

Ah I see. I can understand why she did I suppose. Even if she secretly agreed with you she'd probably be crucified for having transphobic supporters.

You can't be seen to even talk to feminists who don't go along with the Trans take over.....