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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

999 replies

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 15:52

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

OP posts:
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10
SirVixofVixHall · 24/02/2016 20:14

Agree MrsJamin.

SirVixofVixHall · 24/02/2016 20:18

Also the word "gender", as I mentioned upthread, means the same as sex. It has recently been appropriated as meaning "gender idenitity", and is used to mean that without the word Identity added, by trans people and others. But for the general world at large, if you ask what gender their baby is, they won't reply "well, they haven't decided yet".

Mrsmorton · 24/02/2016 20:37

MrsJamin maybe if Hareem Ghani realises that she's being looked at by people from outside her small bubble, she will get a grip of her social media? hopeful As it is, all of the knobs will hang on to the coat tails of Anna Lee thinking they're being revolutionary...

MrsJamin · 24/02/2016 20:48

Indeed. Her twitter account reads like the twitter feed of a random student. Not impressive in anyway. Is this part of the course for NUS officers? Surely students deserve better than this?

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 24/02/2016 20:49

There are loads of students on mn, we need to get them all behind Hareem. Surely even the most "equalitarian" of them will draw a line at Anal Ee?

I'm somewhat embarrassed to ask here... How does the voting work? I tend to use my nus membership for cinema discount and free cheeseburgers at mcdonalds, and nothing else.

LyndaNotLinda · 24/02/2016 21:46

Eddie Izzard may describe himself as transgender but he has never called himself a woman. I cannot imagine him ever thinking he could be the voice of female students (or women)

LizzieLou3 · 24/02/2016 22:00

I've been reading this thread with sadness. Why are so many questions being asked on here about trans gender people? Are you expecting them to come on here and answer you? Why ask each other when you all agree? Some of these posts are so hostile, generalised, many are cruel. I have identified as a feminist all my adult life and I can see the validity of some of the concerns here but I have a tween daughter who, to my great sadness for her sake, has always said that she is male (from as soon as she could speak). I am not 'girly' in any way but love being a woman and feel my gender identity is far more than biology or being oppressed by men or the disadvantages i experience. I feel it is something greater, more significant. I believe my daughter about her identity. I wish, with all my heart to protect her from cruel, thoughtless judgments and unkind levels of curiosity. I hope that people will take her seriously when she explains that she was born this way and didn't choose it. I feel mortified for her when she is challenged for being in the ladies loos (physically she appears to be a boy) and I wish with all my heart for some unisex solution. Not all trans people will be genuine. Many people are fake and false in all walks of life. But I believe that some, on both sides, are genuine and they will experience things that are far worse than I have. I have a sense of solidarity with the women around me and I'm at home in my body. I have shared experience with other women. I don't disagree with the sensible reasoned arguments here but I feel there is a heavy dose of spite and stereotyping mixed in as well.

Mellowautumn · 24/02/2016 22:15

Lizzie - there is no spite here - just womens truths and biological truths and while they may be difficult for you to accept they are still the truth. To be honest being nice has fucked women over and over again on trans-issues and while I would not want to hurt your daughter on a personal level, I'm not prepared to sit down and shut up about this anymore.

VincentVanLowe · 24/02/2016 22:16

What is a 'genuine trans person'?

A few years ago, that would have referred to a person who suffered a recognised disorder where they despised their own bodies and wished they had the bodies of the opposite sex. So - someone suffering from mental health problems, but not someone who was or ever could actually be the opposite sex. Their authenticity could be measured by how much effort they put into 'passing' - meaning, how well they attempted to fit a stereotype of the opposite sex. Fitting those stereotypes included wearing a costume; affecting a more feminine or masculine sounding voice, stance, walk etc; and probably having cosmetic surgery done on healthy body parts to approximate the look of a person of the opposite sex. However genuine the mental anguish of such a 'genuine trans person', every one of these items is offensive and objectifying in its own way, and feminism has never supported any of it.

Nowadays, 'genuine trans person' usually means, 'someone who says they are trans'. What you mean by the phrase LizzyLou? How do you distinguish 'genuine trans' from 'fake trans'?

SirVixofVixHall · 24/02/2016 22:18

Lizzie- I am sorry that your daughter feels so unhappy with the body she has. I am not in your position, so I can't know how I would react as a parent, but I think that your comment about spite is misplaced. I think there has been justifiable anger at men's behaviour, but i don't think there has been spiteful comment. I don't think anyone would have a problem with gender neutral loos as long as there were women only loos too. Also this thread only applies to male trans people and not female, who will have different issues.

SirVixofVixHall · 24/02/2016 22:20

Or a least in terms of keeping women safe it applies to spaces that are women only.

iwuddarryl · 24/02/2016 22:24

Lizzielou, the reason people are so vocal about it (and why shouldn't they be)
is because there are far more men wanting to be women than the other way around.
Yes there are people like your daughter, who wish to be male, but they are far outnumbered by males wanting to be female.

Does anybody know why that is? Why do more men want to transition to female than vice versa? Confused]

Because of this imbalance, women's spaces are under far more threat than men's spaces are.
This is why people are speaking out.

LizzieLou3 · 24/02/2016 22:26

I would find it hard to judge and therefore won't attempt it. Would it be your interpretation therefore that my daughter can only be mentally ill? Is there no possibility that there is another explanation?

LizzieLou3 · 24/02/2016 22:27

Sorry my question was for Vincent

LizzieLou3 · 24/02/2016 22:31

Lizzielou, the reason people are so vocal about it (and why shouldn't they be)

Just to be clear I didn't say people shouldn't be vocal. I said there was spite and hostility. I'm not afraid of your thought police accusation there. You can say it openly. Feel free.

3point14159265359 · 24/02/2016 22:37

Lizzie, no spite here at all. I can't begin to imagine how it must be to feel that way. But I simply cannot accept that a man, who says he's a woman, can represent women on a women's platform, whilst pushing a trans agenda.

And I'm horrified that women can't speak up about it without being labelled transphobic, bigots, vile, I think someone else used, and, yes, spiteful.

LizzieLou3 · 24/02/2016 22:37

And by the way you can be sure that many others have read this thread with sadness or anger but decided not to get drawn in. And probably rightly so as we can all guess where it goes from here.

kua · 24/02/2016 22:39

I'm not seeing spite or hostility just women with concerns re how their spaces are being eroded.

Your daughter wishing to be be male still comes under our female umbrella of whom we would protect.

VincentVanLowe · 24/02/2016 22:41

That's a very cagey answer considering you have just posted claiming that there are both genuine and fake trans people! You used those terms, surely you must be able to give a definition of what you mean by them? You said in your post that there are 'genuine trans people' and 'fakes' - what do you mean by that, how do you suggest we distinguish between them?

Im happy to be frank myself - yes, I would say if your child is of one sex but believes they are another 'mentally' then they are suffering from delusions. Are you offended by that? I'm bipolar, I and some of the people I love most in the world struggle with delusional thinking at times. It doesn't help us to have people enable those delusions, in fact it can make life a lot more difficult and dangerous for us.

I wonder sometimes if some people feel that it is better to identify as trans than to be diagnosed with or treated for a mental health issue?

OhShutUpThomas · 24/02/2016 22:42

Would it be your interpretation therefore that my daughter can only be mentally ill?

Well...yes, I support the argument that feeling you've been 'born in the wrong body' is a form of body dysmorphia, which needs help from a mental health perspective.
But why is this a problem? Having a mental health issue is no different from any other health issue. It's no ones fault, but does need appropriate care.

I feel for your daughter but I don't subscribe to the idea that she is a 'man born in a woman's body.' I really believe that colluding in the lie that yes, your body is wrong, just sends out such confusing and harmful messages to these children. And yet it's what the media is telling parents they MUST do, or they're transphobic. It's so sad.

I hope that in years to come we live in a world where people can just dress however they want without feeling this pressure to 'identify' as being different.

LyndaNotLinda · 24/02/2016 22:42

I think we're living in a world where people feel free not to conform to gender roles but rather than moving outside those and saying that those gender roles are wrong, they feel that they're the wrong sex.

If we didn't have gender expectations that were so rigidly tied to sex, I don't believe gender dysmorphia would exist.

I'm sorry for your DD's pain and unhappiness lizzielou.

3point14159265359 · 24/02/2016 22:43

God, I took so long typing that, the conversation moved on.

I have a theory that childhood is unnecessarily gendered in a way it wasn't before that possibly pushes people to reject their sex is a way that wasn't necessary before.

I'm a child of the 70s. We all wore brown and navy. Loads of girls had short hair. Nothing sparkled. If I'd have felt like a boy, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference to what I wore and very little to what I did.

iwuddarryl · 24/02/2016 22:43

Lets not let one person derail it. -despite their best efforts--
This is why we never get anywhere. Somebody throws around a word like bigot or spiteful into the mix and everybody clams up.

Don't let this happen.

Now where were we.

OhShutUpThomas · 24/02/2016 22:44

Vincent put it better than I did, especially the last paragraph.

VincentVanLowe · 24/02/2016 22:45

LizzieLou - at 22.00 part of your post reads:
"Not all trans people will be genuine. Many people are fake and false in all walks of life. But I believe that some, on both sides, are genuine "

That's what I was referring to. How do you define 'genuine trans' please and how do we distinguish between the 'genuines' and the 'fakes'?

Many thanks.

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