And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

[PosieReturningParker]

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

UNDOUBTABLY!!!

I don't know if I agree they undoubtedly have a bad time.

I mean, compared to what? I've always been, to different extents and in different ways, non conforming wrt gender. And at times I have had to conformake, for different reasons. Have all trans identifying males had a worse time than I have with dealing with expectations of gender? Even the ones who only started to play with non conforming as a fifty plus year old?

It's not even been a hundred years since women began wearing trouser like clothing for under their skirts, has it? Women didn't begin wearing trousers in public regularly in our own culture til, what, fifty years ago? I've never heard any man speak about the bravery of women who wear trousers, or the bravery of women who don't tweeze their eyebrows or shave their legs or not wear makeup. I don't think I've often heard even women praise the bravery of women who do these things.

So, what do men who identify as trans have a hard time with? We know for a fact that their oft quoted statistics regarding murders and suicides are fabricated. Men who identify as trans are all over the net talking about the violence they experience, but it turns out that they consider using the correct pronouns for them as violence. Women setting any boundaries at all is 'violence'. With this much bullshit floating around, i'm going to want some proper evidence, some way to quantify their 'hard times'.

I believe that they think they've had a hard time, in the same way your average MRA believes that he too has had a hard time. But even when they have anecdotal stories of actual violence and meanness they've experienced, how are the stories any worse than the stories any other man could tell? This guy was bullied because he had a hobby often associated with girls, that guy was bullied because he had red hair or was overweight or underweight or was sick on himself that one time in class. Men who identify as trans have told so many lies that I just do not believe that their 'hard time' is any worse than anyone else's or was even due to their identifying as trans anyway.

They haven't been denied any legal rights as a result of their identifying as trans, not as far as I can tell, they have the same rights as everyone else. I appreciate it's hard wanting to live life not as a stereotype but we all battle with that to some degree. I don't even own a skirt or a dress or any makeup for that matter, where's my equal pay, where's my special rules and awards for bravery?

Not annoyed with you, hope it doesn't come across that way. I just feel so much that weve all been lied to and taken advantage of and I think it's time we start demanding real evidence before we accept any of their propaganda about how awful their lives are as men who want to pretend to be women.

I am so sorry that my posts are so long. I am not used to having to make succinct arguments! I'll try harder.

I think your posts are interesting and thought provoking and I agree with them.

And it's interesting that if you behave in a gender non-conforming way (e.g. a woman not shaving her legs/armpits or plucking her eyebrows) people make you feel ashamed but if you behave in a gender non-conforming way and call yourself trans then people say how brave you are!

No, you're right Vincent

One of those guardian toilet articles said something like; women are bigots for thinking trans people are a threat. Women haven't experienced violence from TW in toilets, its all in their crazy heads. Whereas trans people have experienced really hard stares and are properly scared

I'll try and find the actual quote

(I mean it was your post VincentVanLowe that made me think about that)

And yy, I was mistaken for a boy until I grew tits and hips. Then I gender conformed through late teens and early 20s, getting leched at, groped, sexually assualted and raped. I've been gradually less and less gender conforming f9r the last 20 years. Now depending on my mood/what im doing i can look fairly feminine to very androgenous. People comment fairly regularly. This whole 'cis' thing does annoy me. Out of the hundreds of women i know, only a handful have always felt comfortable with their gender. Its a ridiculous notion that little girls float effortlessly into womenhood, isn't it

Wrt toilets and changing rooms, they are asking for special rules. They are saying, if we look behind their misleading terms, men who identify as trans should be allowed to use women's rooms under a 'special circumstances' rule, but men who don't identify as trans should continue to use the men's rooms. The only difference is that one set calls themselves trans - there is nothing else.

They say they need access to women's rooms because of violence in the men's rooms. Where is the evidence that they have experienced hard times of any sort in the men's rooms, beyond what any other men experience? Before they can ask for a special rule, before we can consider whether calling yourself trans is a relevant qualification for special circumstances exceptions, I want to see some evidence that the discussion is even necessary and not a huge waste of time.

That's the way it usually works, no? A group shows evidence of need, and then we can consider how best to meet that need. When did men who identify as transfer ever show evidence of need for women's spaces?

Trans, not transfer. My phone is oppressing me!

It's about validation rather than need. Which is madness that one group of people's need for validation outweighs reasonable consideration of another group's privacy, dignity and safety.

How can anyone watch the those two videos and still fail to see what's going on here? I agree with those who think that the narrator of the second video is actually a digitally-altered recording of Anna's own voice - it doesn't sound natural. Surely going to these bizarre lengths is a sign of having lost touch with reality?

Slight derail but I just got emailed this petition. Isn't it the case that GPs have the right to refuse to sign off on an abortion for a patient if it goes against their own personal beliefs..?

I agree it seems to be about validation, but whoever heard of legislation changing because someone wanted validation? Changing organisational policies on any scale takes resources and so we need to push in all circumstances for there to be demonstration of need before discussion can continue regarding actual changes.

For example, what evidence does Anna provide in their 'annafesto' of need wrt men who id as trans being given access to women's spaces, sports teams, and setting aside positions for them? Why should we even entertain these ideas without evidence being provided that there is even a problem to fix?

The NUS needs to be pushed to demonstrate what evidence they've considered and they need to show how they have considered the impacts on women as a stakeholder group. Don't they have to do that?? If they are trying to get round it with 'trans women are women', don't they need to show that that phrase is generally accepted as true across different circumstances?

It seems like a whole bunch of orgs are bypassing their own rules and regulations here. The government in particular needs to be pushed to demonstrate that a) men who identify as trans have proven needs that aren't being met and that aren't more than anyone else has a right to and b) that all stakeholders have been properly consulted.

I have a feeling that digitally altered audio video will disappear soon. It appears to be evidence of an attempt to misrepresent themselves.

Also, mumsnet should reconsider their policies wrt transgender 'misgendering' etc. What evidence do they have that using correct pronouns causes any harm to the person addressed, that is any more than the damage caused to us from being forced to use incorrect pronouns?

Why is it that all these blokes "transwomen" are so bad at hair/makeup/dressing?

They all seem to want to look like Widow Twanky 🙄

So, here is women being ludicrous about safety concerns in toilets;

This conversation has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with transphobia. We already have laws against sexual predation and harassment in public toilets – they’re called laws. And, anyway, as Marcie Bianco reported Mic last year, claims that letting trans people use the toilet is somehow a “safety” issue are founded on literally nothing. “Vincent Villano, the director of communications for the National Center for Transgender Equality, told Mic in an email that there isn’t any firm data to corroborate these lawmakers’ claims, and that NCTE has ‘not heard of a single instance of a transgender person harassing a non-transgender person in a public restroom. Those who claim otherwise have no evidence that this is true and use this notion to prey on the public’s stereotypes and fears about transgender people

And, here are trans people with totally legitimate concerns about being stared at;

Meanwhile, I know plenty of trans people who don’t feel safe using public toilets because they have experienced glares and harassment from cis people who buy into this rhetoric

If women are being chastised because 'we already have laws against sexual harassment intoiklets' and we should be relying on them....why can't trans stick to their own toilets, and rely on same said laws?

I think that focusing on how much (or how little) transwomen look like women derails the other, serious, concerns about how transwomen insisting on being treated as women potentially negatively impacts biological women who identify as women.

I think men should be allowed to change with girls at my local pool, there are no reports of any physical attacks...

Tomorrow night the rugby team and the under 9 girls swimming club will share a dressing room.

To say men may commit crimes here is really manphobic.

If people/orgs are worried about being done for hate crimes over misgendering etc, then maybe what we need is for this to begin to go through the courts at different levels. I want to see how they will try to prove that using male pronouns for males is indicative of a hate crime just because those males claim it hurt their feelings. Its just nonsense. Meanwhile, I'm sure there has to be some sort of religious freedom law that protects my right not to believe that a man is a woman just because he says he feels like one.

I'm certain we are signed up to international documents protecting women's rights to privacy from men, to gather with whoever we choose, etc. And that newer legislation re transgenet comes into direct conflict. How does this work - how can women get organised to repeal this newer legislation where it conflicts with our established rights? Where would we start?

I mean, at the least, how would we go about establishing a legal definition of women that does not include any males no matter how much they wish it did, which can then be called to protect us from men defining themselves as woman in any circumstances?

I mean like how Cornish pasties have to come from Cornwall, they are a protected category, iyswim.

I'm still feeling a bit annoyed about the definitions of hate crime that a pp posted.

It's a hate crime if you attack or abuse someone because of their race, religion, disability or sexual orientation.

Fair enough.

But.... women aren't included in the above list. So a woman can be attacked, physically or verbally abused, simply because she's a woman, and it's not a hate crime? How is that fair?
It kind of makes me wonder if violence and discrimination against women is so embedded in society that whoever makes these laws just thinks that it's a normal part of life rather than something that can or should be challenged.

Yy stitches. I have never understood that to be honest.

For example: men shouting at me from a car. Or abusing me on the tube. If it's not a hate crime, what the jeff is it? Banter?

Vincent- really interesting posts that are helping me clarify my feelings. I completely agree re the given idea that "transpeople have a hard time". FFs WOMEN have a hard time. Most men have no idea how much casual crap women put up with day in day out. By the time I was 18 I had been flashed at 3 times, had my breasts grabbed, commented on, squeezed and been groped (all of those in the street, while walking along, in the middle of the day) I'd had men try to manipulate me into bed, I'd narrowly missed getting raped, and I'd been attacked at a party by two young men who i knew and trusted, who pinned me onto a floor and tried to rip my dress off. Luckily a friend managed to pull them off. By the time I was 30 I'd been almost killed by my boyfriend, flashed at again, had my breasts "honked" like car horns by a man walking past, had a man try and get me into his car, another whisper "you fucking lesbian" in my ear, really quietly just because i had the temerity to have short hair. By the time I was 35 I'd had men throw stones at me, teenage boys pelt me with maggots, a man threaten to set fire to my house, and another try to break in. I'd been flashed at again. And this is on top of too numerous to count abusive comments, threatening and frightening behaviour, and random sexual aggression. All of this, entirely due to my status as a young woman. And trans"women" have it tough? People who have lived as men through the years when women experience the most sexual abuse and aggression? Riiiiiggghty ho.