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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 21:47

What would satisfy you as evidence that they had been sure at the time?

This is irrelevant, surely? The way our justice system works, men don't have to convince the jury of anything. Complainants do though.

If we have a problem it is that far too few rapists are convicted, not that ken are treated unfairly by the courts.

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 21:48

I think sex drive and erections are different things for men to be honest sparrow. Mentally you might not want sex but physically you're still capable.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 21:48

If everyone involved in a sexual situation says they consented, and are old enough to consent, then that would satisfy me that consent was given.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 21:52

Seems reasonable sparrowhawk.

I'm not sure you can reason with the kind of person who says "I fear for my boys" though.

We could point at the low conviction rates and the myriad of ways that rape complainants are prevented from reporting or getting justice until the cows came home.... I'm not sure there's any point trying.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 21:54

SomeDyke you raised the rape accusation in this debate. Sparrow, Bertrand and Posie have supported you. I am just really curious. What would satisfy you (as a defence against an later malicious accusation of rape), that consent had actually been given ?

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 21:57

If everyone involved in a sexual situation says they consented, and are old enough to consent (and had capacity), then that would satisfy me that consent was given.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 21:58

Sparrow so what happens when (post hoc) , one party says "Actually no. I didn't give consent at all"

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:00

I believe them. And I support them.

Statistically, it is overwhelmingly likely that they are telling the truth.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 22:00

Then charges and a criminal case may be brought.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 22:01

Woman with altitude
You may have libelled Louis Richardson at 21:45

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:02

And I'm not sure why you keep saying "post hoc". All rape complaints are after the event by definition.

Oh, wait a minute... you're trying to imply that a complaint made after the event = 'regretted sex' aren't you? Pretty low.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:03

No, I really haven't. Point to the thing that I said that was untrue:

He claimed that he believed they consented.
He had more than one accuser.
Statistically, rape suspect are more likely to be lying than complainants.

All true.

whatnow123 · 10/02/2016 22:03

If men had sex everytime they had an erection; we wouldn't have time for anything else.

If someone consents to sex because they don't want the relationship to end - is that real consent.

Or if a couple haven't had sex for months and one partner decides to initiate and the other goes along because it's been so long - is it consent.

The reasons why someone has sex with someone else can be vast and having a mutually enjoyable experience is not always the main one.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 22:07

Well, if the (usually) man can report a conversation that includes an exchange something like "Do you want to have sex?" "Oh, yes, that would be fantastic" then he won't have to say that he "believed" she consented- he will know for certain that she did.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:07

My rapist claimed pretty much exactly that in court Bertrand.

They lie.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 22:08

WomanwithAltitude
So if she says "Well I let him believe that I gave consent. But, on reflection, I now feel I had NOT given consent . Therefore I would now like to bring forward an accusation of rape"

What advice would you give to men to avoid such risks?

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 22:10

I'm sorry.

I was still talking about how men can protect themselves from false accusations.

Yes, I agree. Rapists lie.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:10

Have you read the law?

If the man has a reasonable belief in consent there is no crime.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 22:11

Under the law, reasonable belief of consent is a legitimate defence.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 22:11

"So if she says "Well I let him believe that I gave consent. But, on reflection, I now feel I had NOT given consent . Therefore I would now like to bring forward an accusation of rape"

If she says "I let him believe I gave consent" then there's no case to answer. Of course.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:12

I know Bertrand. Your point remains that if a man genuinely gets consent by seeking enthusiastic participation then he has no reason to worry.

The chance of being convicted of rape are tiny even if you're a rapist. The chances of being wrongly convicted if you are innocent are infinitesimal.

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:15

...which is why someone who fears for their sons rather than the women in their life is extremely misguided.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 22:16

One of his accusers changed her mind again part way through the process (and hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money) and decided she have given consent after all. Was she lying then telling the truth or telling the truth and now lying?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 22:20

Is there a reason you're focusing on one case where a man was acquited as opposed to the thousands upon thousands of women who are raped every year?

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 22:20

It's not exactly shocking news that many genuine victims retract their statements and refuse to testify due to the stress and pressure of the legal process. It's not exactly a rare occurrence.

Speaking as someone who's been through that process I can absolutely understand why. It takes a huge toll on your life, often over a period of years.