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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 16:17

But clearly you do want sex Mide. You might not be as horny and up for it as you once were, but sex is a positive thing for you and you know it's worth the initial effort that it takes to get started. You are still consenting to a pleasurable worthwhile activity, you're not just letting your partner do things that you don't want or like. Surely you can see the difference?

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 16:24

I think that's a bit of a stretch Slow.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 16:26

"It is up to each spouse to decide if they will have sex they might not be in the mood for if that keeps the other partner happy. That is totally different from rape."
If you are willing to have sex with someone who you know doesn't really want it, but is only doing it to shut you up/try to keep you happy/stop you leaving them and the kids destitute, then even if you think this is totally different from rape, it actually makes you very similar to a rapist, in that you are actually willing (if not eager) to have sex with someone that you know doesn't really want it.

Let's cut the crap, that is rape! May be very difficult to prosecute or convict, but morally it is rape, making anyone who does it a rapist.

Sometimes All of the time I'm really, really glad I'm a dyke and that I don't have to put up with this seemingly endless male entitlement to female bodies.............

Slow hand clap for taking something very much out of context Slow

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 16:32

Hmmm..... your teenage sons. It's bizarre as I have three sons, two are teens. And whenever rape comes up I don't think my poor boys I think how can I ensure they are respectful and for my daughter I think I can ensure she doesn't get into tricky situations?

DeoGratias · 10/02/2016 16:42

" TheSparrowhawk Wed 10-Feb-16 16:08:49

Yes, a bit back in the thread she said having sex with someone you know doesn't really want it, but is only doing it to shut you up/keep you happy/stop you leaving is rape. That's not a very controversial thing to say surely?"

Those reasons are not rape in law so yes it's a controversial thing to say. Other reasons such as you are tied down and have not consented or you will be beaten to death unless you agree and then it's rape. There are obviously cases closer to the line but the vast majority of spouses who give in to the other's desire for sex but aren't actually that bothered about having it that night are nothing like near the victims of rape.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 16:49

Do you honestly believe a person has to be held down or threatened with death in order for it to be rape?

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 17:13

"But clearly you do want sex Mide. You might not be as horny and up for it as you once were, but sex is a positive thing for you and you know it's worth the initial effort that it takes to get started. You are still consenting to a pleasurable worthwhile activity, you're not just letting your partner do things that you don't want or like. Surely you can see the difference?"

Yes I can see the difference sparrow but that's not what I read from yours and somedykes posts. I read those posts as you should never have sex unless you fully want it. To me in real life that's not always how it works.

I know we are pretty much saying the same thing really.

itllallbefine · 10/02/2016 17:25

Look here.

Let me give an example - my partner asks if I fancy a bit later on. I could say no, I could say I hadn't thought about it so no. I could say I'll see how I feel later on. Or I could say - yeah, sounds nice. I may not have suggested it myself for whatever reason, but someone in a relationship has to suggest it for crying out loud. The person doing the suggesting is not a pest, and the person to whom it was suggested obviously was not desperate for sex, otherwise they would have asked themselves. Therefore it seems entirely reasonable to suggest that the person being asked is having sex in a situation they otherwise would not have been were not it for their partners suggestion.

How this can be construed as worth mentioning in the same sentance as rape is down to the the odious and strange desire there seems to exist by some posters to convince women they are being abused or exploited.

On the other hand - you sparrow et. al (correct me if I am wrong) are not saying that you should only ever have sex when both partners are equally up for it and that both will always experience the exact same levels of arousal during the experience.

So there is no argument then. Great - we can move on !

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 17:31

BUT it'll If your partner touched your arse at 5pm, you said "stop", then squeezed you and leaned in for a kiss at 5.15, then groped you whilst you were unpacking the dishwater at 6, then said, at dinner, I fancy a shag tonight, then tried to kiss you passionately at 8, then groped you at 9, tried to initiate sex at ten? That would be pestering.... by the time some women post here this has been going on like this on and off for weeks, months or even years.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 17:33

You seem to have misunderstood Itll. Of course one partner usually suggests it. No one has any problem with that. The problem arises when a person constantly pesters for it even though they know their partner isn't keen, or uses tactics like sulking, stropping or threatening to leave in order to get sex.

HowBadIsThisPlease · 10/02/2016 18:52

"BUT it'll If your partner touched your arse at 5pm, you said "stop", then squeezed you and leaned in for a kiss at 5.15, then groped you whilst you were unpacking the dishwater at 6, then said, at dinner, I fancy a shag tonight, then tried to kiss you passionately at 8, then groped you at 9, tried to initiate sex at ten?"

Is this a Craig David song?

SomeDyke · 10/02/2016 19:19

"the whole 'it's not black and white' thing is a crock of shit."

I totally agree. If you're not sure what someone wants, or whether they want this or that, or anything at all, you ask. Full, precise, informed consent.

"on planet dyke, sex is only ever engaged in as a spontaneous act" This poster has some serious comprehension problems, which might explain why they have such an issue with asking a clear question (and knowing what to to do if your partner says "no, not really.........").................

SomeDyke · 10/02/2016 19:33

"Those reasons are not rape in law so yes it's a controversial thing to say."

The law be damned!

If you are willing to have sex with someone who you know does not really want it, then you are knowingly willing to violate the bodily autonomy of that person without their full consent, and I really don't know what to call you apart from a rapist..................You may have obtained seeming consent by various forms of pressure, and you bloody well know you have, and that doesn't make it okay ethically, whatever the CPS may say.

Rather sad if someone bases their supposed sexual etiquette on what they can be prosecuted for, rather than what we all know really is the decent attitude towards a fellow human being.

It's only controversial because of the supposed fact that men get all confused and worried they will be prosecuted for rape by malicious women who changed their mind the next morning. I just keep thinking of George Galloway and his 'every time' comment....................

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 19:39

The next time someone says "I fear for my boys" I might scream.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 19:42

Hear hear Dyke and Bertrand

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 20:01

It genuinely shocks me when people try to excuse nasty coercive behaviour on the basis that the person can't be prosecuted for it - do people really think that way?

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 20:46

I fear for my boys

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 20:59

Sparrow, Dyke, Bertrand
Louis Richardson (the 21 year old student at Durham University) belIeved his accuser had given her consent. What would you advise young men to ensure they don't run the risk of being accused of rape.

I'm asking because SomeDyke brought up rape and Sparrow and Bertrand support this.

What would be acceptable evidence for you that consent had actually been given so as to avoid a post hoc accusation of rape?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 21:13

A 'post hoc' accusation of rape? Is there such a thing as an 'ad hoc' accusation?

With the Louis Richardson case there are two possibilities:
He didn't believe he had consent, he lied and he got away with it, in which case he should avoid raping and lying.
Two women separately and maliciously accused him of rape and sexual assault in which case he he fell victim to two nasty people, which is bad luck and the only way to avoid it entirely is to never sleep with another woman.

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 21:16

Slow- I'm not sure how you "believe" someone consented. They either did or they didn't.

It's not hard is it? Millions of men manage to have sex every year and a tiny tiny percentage get falsely accused.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 21:27

In return Slow, do you have any advice for the more than 85000 women who are actually raped every year?

whatnow123 · 10/02/2016 21:36

As a man I find this thread eye opening.

Have I had sex with my partner when I didn't really fancy it? Yes most definitely. I've never thought of it as an issue. I'm happy if she enjoys it.

I think there is a lot of nuance to this. I know of female friends who hate giving oral sex for example. They do it because their husband likes it, and they like receiving.

It may be different for women but if my sex drive disappeared, but everything else was perfect, and I wanted the relationship to continue, I would still have sex.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 21:37

Oh jeez. As soon as I wrote post hoc.I knew you'd jump on it.

Earlier Bertrand you said "Just tell them not to have sex with people unless they are sure that the other person wants to have sex with them. It's not that hard."

What would satisfy you as evidence that they had been sure at the time?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 21:38

Wouldn't you have trouble maintaining an erection what?

WomanWithAltitude · 10/02/2016 21:45

"Louis Richardson (the 21 year old student at Durham University) claimed that he belIeved his accusers had given their consent"

Fixed that for you.

You know that, regardless of the verdict, it's vastly more likely that he was lying than that both of them were, right?